Nicky Lowe [00:00:06]:
Hi, it’s Nicky Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom for Working Mums podcast show. I’m your host, and for nearly 2 decades now, I’ve been an executive coach and leadership development consultant. And on this show, I share evidence-based insights from my coaching, leadership, and psychological expertise, and inspiring interviews that help women like you to combine your work life and motherhood in a more successful and sustainable way. Join Join me and my special guests as we delve into leadership and lifestyle topics for women, empowering you to thrive one conversation at a time. I’m so happy that you’re here, and let’s get on with today’s episode. Have you ever walked away from a conversation at work and wondered, was that okay? Am I overreacting, or is something genuinely wrong here? Workplace bullying isn’t always obvious. It doesn’t necessarily look like shouting, intimidation, or openly hostile behaviour. Sometimes it’s much more subtle— being repeatedly undermined or excluded from important conversations, perhaps publicly criticised or subjected to so-called banter.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:21]:
Microaggressions that individually might seem insignificant But collectively start to erode your confidence and sense of belonging. And for women, those experiences can take on another dimension, particularly when we become mothers. But where is the line between difficult workplace behaviour and bullying, discrimination, and harassment? And what can you actually do when something doesn’t feel right? That’s what we’re exploring today with my guest, Tina Chander. Tina is a partner at Weightmans, an employment lawyer with 18 years’ experience, and the founder of End Workplace Bullying Day, which takes place on the 26th of October. And the timing of this conversation feels particularly significant. Research conducted for End of Workplace Bullying Day suggests that 2 in 5 employees are still experiencing bullying at work. Discriminatory banter relating to characteristics such as race, gender, and sexual orientation is reported present in 45% of workplaces, while there is still significant confusion about what constitutes sexual harassment and even digital bullying. And this October, the legal landscape is changing too.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:39]:
From the 30th of October, employers will face a strengthened duty to take all reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment alongside new protections relating to harassment by third parties such as clients, customers, and contractors. It’s an important shift because it raises a bigger question: what does it really take to create a workplace where people feel safe, not simply one that has the right policies on paper? Today, Tina and I are going to explore what workplace bullying and harassment actually looked like, the impact of microaggressions and why these behaviours remain so prevalent, and what the changing law means for both employees and employers, and what you can practically do if you find yourself experiencing them. This is a really important conversation, so I won’t keep you any longer. Let’s welcome Tina. So welcome, Tina. Thank you for joining me.

Tina Chander [00:03:35]:
Thanks, Nicky. I’m very excited to be on your podcast today.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:38]:
Me too. This is a really important subject, so I really appreciate you kind of coming and sharing your expertise on this. I mean, firstly, I’m really curious, like, why this topic? Why is it such an area that you’re passionate about?

Tina Chander [00:03:52]:
So, I started an End Workplace Bullying campaign about 3 years ago, and that came about for 2 reasons primarily. The first is I’m an employment lawyer, and I have been a lawyer for 18 years. And I act for businesses and individuals, and I love employment law, and I’m very passionate about my work, which is why I still do it and continue to enjoy it every single day. But one of the frustrations as an employment lawyer is the idea of reacting to everything instead of being proactive. So unfortunately, we have situations where employers need to react to a complaint. But what I realized through my experience as an employment lawyer is that very little employers actually know what the basis of a complaint is. They think, for example, they know what bullying is, and they think they know the outcome of that complaint without really getting into it. But likewise for individuals, I’ve seen some really sad stories over the years where it’s bullying, whether it’s an isolated act or numerous acts have resulted in individuals losing confidence and actually staying out of the workplace for a long time before they go back into work.

Tina Chander [00:05:16]:
But sadly, the law does not have a definition of bullying, and there is no complaint that an employee can directly make to a tribunal for bullying. I realised that actually what, what we need to do is ensure that employers realise that they have a duty of care to all their employees, and one of them is to create a safe working environment and therefore to prevent bullying, but also for employees to feel empowered to raise those complaints and have faith in their employer to deal with those complaints. And as I’ve progressed through my career as an employment lawyer, there have been certain incidences in my past where I thought, that’s not okay, that’s a bit off-key. I know I’m feeling a particular way, and I’ve questioned it myself because it happened to me. So what I’ve really wanted to do over the years is talk about bullying. Don’t pretend it’s not happening. Empower businesses to feel like they, they need to do something, but also empower individuals to get help.

Nicky Lowe [00:06:26]:
I love that. And yeah, it— the impact of this can be so insidious, can’t it? And I see that often in with my coaching clients, that at some point in their career, it is pretty common that somebody has experienced some form of bullying and the lasting impact of that, even if it’s decades previously. So yeah, I think this is a really important topic. So You’ve talked there that actually there’s not a definition of bullying, which I didn’t realise. So I think it might be a great place to start about actually how do we then in this conversation define what do we mean by bullying, how does that differ to perhaps harassment, and how do we know what actually constitutes it?

Tina Chander [00:07:07]:
So although bullying is not legally defined, a quick Google search will tell you lots of different versions of what bullying is, but ultimately it’s behaviours that are unwanted. So bullying can take so many different forms. It can, it can create an environment which feels hostile, which feels intimidating, which feels offensive, and those definitions, or those keywords, sorry, do feature in harassment laws. But bullying is behaviour that you’re experiencing from someone else. It’s It can be via Teams, i.e., digital. It can be face-to-face. It can take many different forms, but ultimately it’s unwanted conduct. Whilst the law doesn’t define bullying, those behaviours still are relevant to a successful workplace dealing with them.

Tina Chander [00:08:02]:
So it’s so, so important that employers are on board. that there’s certain behaviours which are not tolerated, and those behaviours will naturally fall into what are the common definitions of bullying, albeit we don’t have a legal one.

Nicky Lowe [00:08:19]:
Okay, thank you. Now, I know you, you do research in this area, and I—

Tina Chander [00:08:24]:
Yes.

Nicky Lowe [00:08:24]:
Kind of was surprised but wasn’t surprised that it suggests— your research suggests that 2 in 5 employees are still experiencing bullying in the workplace. So why do you think it still remains so prevalent when actually we hear the term a lot, like even from like schools, it’s now in our school system, you know, more awareness. Why do you think it is still so prevalent?

Tina Chander [00:08:48]:
I think there’s a couple of reasons as to why it’s prevalent. There’s a real lack of understanding as to what constitutes bullying, and there’s also loads of grey areas as to what What is banter and when that is acceptable? What is discriminatory conduct? What is harassment and what is bullying? And unfortunately, employers don’t invest enough in ensuring all staff, regardless of their seniority in an organisation, understand the behaviours that constitute bullying. Now, what I tend to find is, and I can understand employers taking this view. They won’t believe bullying happens because there’s no record of it being reported. And there lies the problem, unfortunately. We have this issue where there is a fear of reporting bullying, and therefore it never lands on an employer’s desk to look at, and therefore it happens silently. So individuals will talk to their family or their close friends, Or they would just leave their job rather than deal with it because they have a fear of reporting, or they will go on long-term sickness absence and hope that they feel better to go back into the workplace at a certain point. So unfortunately, unless we shout about it and say, this is bullying, this behaviour is not okay, and this is what you do if you experience it, our figures will never be the true figures as to how many people are being bullied at work.

Nicky Lowe [00:10:19]:
Yeah, and I think we hear so many times, don’t we, in the media about whistleblowers and the impact of somebody actually coming forward and speaking out. And often it comes at huge personal cost of doing that, if personal and professional cost of doing it. I hear this a lot about this gap between employee employers going, oh no, it doesn’t happen here, and actually anecdotal evidence that says absolutely it does, but you’re just not seeing where that gap is and what’s, what’s fuelling the gap. So, you’ve already mentioned that bullying isn’t always obvious, that there is this kind of grey area, there can be a subtleness to it. Can you kind of talk about some of the more subtle behaviours that people may not kind of think about so clearly?

Tina Chander [00:11:09]:
So, so what I tend to find is That when I speak to an individual who has come to me because they’re desperate for help, so I always, unfortunately, have a situation where the employees reach the end of the road and want help to exit, as opposed to deal with the situation. And they often won’t want to believe that certain things that have occurred during their employment do amount to bullying, and it’s unfortunately my job to sort Sometimes point out, actually, that is bullying. And the sorts of things which employees themselves sometimes don’t want to admit is bullying includes being singled out, so be— and being excluded. Those 2 behaviours can really make an individual feel isolated in the workplace. So those can be forms of bullying. In Teams messaging, that’s become a very, sadly, popular forum for bullying. You tend to find a lot of singling out in that scenario. So, for example, if you’ve got 10 people in a team and you want to ask an individual in that group why you haven’t done something that was due, or can you pick something up that is due? question why you wouldn’t send that person a separate Teams message.

Tina Chander [00:12:35]:
But in that group setting, an individual can feel that there’s a lot of hyperfocus on them. They feel intimidated to say no. They feel that they are being singled out. So that’s just one example. But other examples are management styles. So lots of managers are really, really good. So I’m not here to say all managers are terrible because there are some fantastic managers out there. But a lot of managers have achieved their positions because they’ve hit their KPIs or they’ve hit the metrics for promotion, and they’re really good at their day job.

Tina Chander [00:13:16]:
And then what you tend to find happens, all of a sudden, these managers have employees that they’re line managing, they’ve got to start having one-to-ones with or managing absence and sorting out holidays, etc. But what you tend to find is there is a cohort of managers that unfortunately have no clue about HR and employment law and have very little knowledge of basics, which is bullying, harassment, discrimination, which, as a manager, you need to know how to deal and spot those things occurring. So, a lot of management style can be viewed by employees as bullying, and that is— and there is lots of examples of that. So, if you have a manager which constantly is chasing you but not others in the group, that might feel like there’s a focus on you, that might make you feel particular way. If you feel that your manager gives you no praise but is continuously criticising you, for example, that can make you feel singled out and isolated. If you are receiving red pen on anything you do, that can even make you as an individual feel that you can’t do anything wrong— right, and your manager’s always on at you. So, management style has to be consistent. Is it consistent in the workforce? I very much doubt it.

Tina Chander [00:14:47]:
But can we, can we get to a point where managers are all singing off the same hymn sheet? Yes. But that would require for managers to have sufficient training. And in the promotion cycle, there has to be room for training if you are going to manage employees going forward as part of your promotion.

Nicky Lowe [00:15:07]:
That is music to my ears, not only professionally, because obviously that’s what I do, I do executive coaching and leadership development, but kind of personally in that we hear so often that managers are promoted and they become accidental managers. It wasn’t their intention, and they often feel so massively out of their depth. They absolutely need that support. But then, as we know, research has shown that our managers have more impact on our mental health than our partners or our therapists. If you are showing up in a way as a manager that is less than kind of appropriate, it has massive implications. So yeah, I can completely concur to that. So obviously this podcast is for working mums predominantly. How do you see this show up with women, and perhaps women who might be mothers in the workplace? Are there kind of particular elements that you might see around bullying or kind of harassment?

Tina Chander [00:16:09]:
Unfortunately, yes, Nicky. So I have been running nationally represented surveys since 2023, and I’m on my 4th survey now, and I ask a series of questions in my, in my surveys, and then I analyse the results. So far, every survey I’ve run has shown that women experience more bullying than men, and that’s unfortunately a sad fact. The stats haven’t really improved as I’ve gone through the results each year, and I think there’s more to it because it’s not as black and white as women just experience more bullying. I think that women are often the subject of harassment as well. Women also feel that they have to work that little bit harder because they might be a working mum. They sometimes approach a situation with less confidence because they are a working mum. So traditionally, women won’t go for promotions, for example, because they feel that they might not be able to undertake the work on a flexible working pattern, or they feel that they won’t be able to commit because they have childcare responsibilities.

Tina Chander [00:17:37]:
Employers are not very good at empowering females to go for those promotions because there are flexible working rights, which are available to all of us, regardless of whether you are a working mum or not. What you tend to find is there is more men in the senior leadership positions, there are more male managers. Now, that might feel like a very generic statement, and I’m sure there are organisations where that balance is tipped the other way, but largely the management cohort is males. And if they haven’t had training as well, that also makes it very difficult for a woman to talk to a man in a particular way. If they feel, for example, that they are being singled out or they are being— a lot of pressure has been placed on them, what you tend to see is, if those women that are working part-time, for example, for some reason they’re still being required to do a full-time job. That isn’t the purpose of flexible working. I think what employers don’t often do is actually logistically look at how a role can effectively be undertaken part-time by a working mother and how a role can effectively be undertaken if there are childcare responsibilities. disabilities, but the female is full-time working.

Tina Chander [00:19:08]:
So unfortunately, what, what tends to happen in a workplace environment is because women will be few in comparison to men, they will have less confidence at times, but also feel that the male manager is treating them differently. Now, that is a major problem in employment. Women, or being treated differently, or being treated less favourably. And if women don’t feel empowered to speak up or to report or to even have an informal conversation, what ends up happening is women stay as they are or move on. And that’s really sad because talent comes in different forms from different people. Diversity in talent is so important for a successful business.

Nicky Lowe [00:20:03]:
Absolutely. All the research shows that, doesn’t it? And what you’re kind of highlighting is some of the systemic barriers that people may not even be aware of, and it kind of— and how, like, that unconscious bias shows up in performance reviews or conversations or just in the day-to-day operations of a team. So Love that. I also find with my clients, I’d be interested to see if this is your experience with kind of your clients and your experience, is around particularly high-achieving women. When they experience these incidents in the workplace, their first thing to do is often reflect, because they’re high personal power, they’re like high self-efficacy, like, what can I do? What did I do wrong? where am I falling short? And they tend to turn inwards and blame themselves first. And I’m interested, is that your experience when you talk to clients?

Tina Chander [00:20:58]:
Absolutely. And, and it’s— and actually, it’s really sad because the majority of individuals that I act for who complain of bullying and want to see what they can do about it are women. And what I tend to find is particularly with those in high senior-level positions, MDs, senior managers, they don’t want to believe that they have been subjected to bullying. And that’s because the effort to have become a managing director has always been more challenging in the first place, and it makes them feel less strong to admit that they have suffered bullying. And what I’ve unfortunately seen is some really sad cases where the female individuals don’t return to the workplace in a senior role. So their experience of being a senior leader has resulted in them not wanting to return. To a similar position in a different organisation, and that has severe impacts on life in general. So recuperate— recuperating from bullying is not simply just leaving your employment and starting a new job.

Tina Chander [00:22:25]:
There is a period of time in between where lots of individuals will need counselling support, will need GP support, will need coaching like you undertake, Nikki. There’s lots of employees that then suffer financially because when they are on— when they have left and they don’t return to work immediately, the income’s stopped. And when they do return to work, they’ve returned in a lesser role for lesser income, which fits with with the role that they’ve gone for. So there’s that side of it as well. And of course, sometimes what businesses forget is that every person that walks in the door every morning to come to work then goes home to family life. What that family life looks like differs from families to families, but the impact on a household when you’ve got someone coming home in tears, that is not sleeping at night, that is feeling anxious, that is scared to look at their emails, that is having to go to the doctors to get a fit note to be signed off work, that will impact the household.

Nicky Lowe [00:23:40]:
And as you say, could be lifelong, like in terms of their lifetime earnings, their pension, everything. It, it has such an impact, doesn’t it? So you’ve already talked about It’s no longer just in the workplace. It’s as it goes digitally, which means you can’t actually ever escape from it. It’s not like you can walk out the office door and close it. So it, it kind of becomes this thing that seeps into all areas of our life. Is there anything specifically around the digital side you think it’s important for us to touch on for anybody listening?

Tina Chander [00:24:12]:
So in terms of the digital side, this seems to have Come about post-COVID. Okay, so pre-COVID, I would occasionally deal with a case that involved some DMs on Facebook, and I say occasionally. Post-COVID, employees were given tools, they were given Zoom, they were given Teams, they were encouraged to have WhatsApp groups amongst their team. All these were not necessarily in place properly before COVID They might have existed, but they weren’t used as much. And since then, we now see very, very— sorry, we now see a high use of those sorts of forums to communicate. Now, what’s interesting is when you send an email to a colleague, it will be stated in a particular way, probably more formal, if I can put it like that. However, on Teams, the way you say a sentence will be shortened, might be a bit more friendlier, might be a bit more laid back, might have emojis that are being used as well, which all have different connotations. And it’s more instant.

Tina Chander [00:25:27]:
And that’s the thing with the digital world now, it’s instant. So whereas an email, you might have got a reply the next morning, For some reason, people are quite happy to reply instantly to a Teams message. And what employers have not done effectively, in my mind, is train employees on the expected behaviours of using those digital platforms. So what employers are very good at is saying, here’s your IT policy, you mustn’t do this when you’re at work, you mustn’t access these sites. You mustn’t speak badly of us on your social media accounts. So they’re great, they’re all in place. But we— but employers have generally let employees just go wild. Use Teams how you want, use Zoom how you want.

Tina Chander [00:26:13]:
So there’ll be often photos being shared, there’ll be, as I said, emojis that can be interpreted differently by others, group conversations that are unnecessary if you need to speak to someone separately. It can cause a distraction, and when it comes to the written form, however that is used, you do have that issue with interpretation. What one person might find very amusing, another person might find highly offensive.

Nicky Lowe [00:26:44]:
Yeah, and I think that, that is often the issue, I imagine, in your work, is the intention versus the impact and that gap. I remember having somebody on one of my workshops, and his background was in the military, and he joined a corporate environment, and he said, I had to learn really quickly that the humor that was appropriate in the military, because it’s quite a black, dark humor that got them through really tough times, he was like, oh, I really had to rein that in because it’s no longer appropriate. And just that recognition of what may have once been appropriate no longer is, or what you might think is appropriate isn’t. And so, It’s, as you say, it’s such a gray area about how do people navigate this. And I suppose let’s move on then to the practical element of it. If somebody is listening to this, either going, I know that I’ve experienced bullying, or I am experiencing bullying, or I’m not sure but I’ve just got this sense, it just— I feel uncomfortable, what can you practically recommend that they can do?

Tina Chander [00:27:48]:
So I think the first step in a workplace environment is to consider if your employer has a policy. Now, I say consider because lots of businesses don’t even have the basics, which is a policy. And I will reiterate, a policy is just the basics.

Nicky Lowe [00:28:09]:
Mm-hmm.

Tina Chander [00:28:11]:
So if one exists, it should really cover off what constitutes bullying, the different types of bullying, and how to complain. Because unfortunately, you have to complain to see if you want some— if you want something done. Now, that sounds very easy during our conversations together, but it’s a huge decision for an employee to come forward and to say, I am not happy about the behaviours of my line manager or the behaviours of my colleague. This was said to me on this day, or this Teams message offended me on this date. So you go into it with faith and belief that any report that you make will be treated fairly. So the first, the first step is to always consider if there is a policy in place. If the policy, for example, says, please speak to your line manager first, and the complaint concerns your line manager, then don’t. So you don’t have to follow the policy strictly if it actually doesn’t make sense to do so.

Tina Chander [00:29:19]:
Most businesses will have an HR manager or business partner. I say most because there are some businesses that still operate with just owners, the owners of running the business and there’s no one in between. When it comes to bullying, you can look to formally complain, as, as in process a grievance. You can see if there’s an informal resolution available. Now, that’s not down to the employer to decide that they will deal with it informally, and that’s really important because what employers sometimes mistakenly do is decide how they’re going to see a complaint through, or decide that whatever the employee has stated, that, that isn’t bullying, and that therefore it doesn’t need to be addressed in that sort of way. It does take a lot of bravery to come forward, but it’s really important that employees do remember that they don’t need to have a list of incidents that have occurred. One incident of bullying is not okay, and therefore employees should come forward and make those complaints, generally to HR, as I’ve said, and also, as part of that complaint, seek the resolution. So, be empowered as an employee.

Tina Chander [00:30:40]:
What resolution do you want? Lots of businesses will have a zero tolerance approach to bullying, and therefore, if there is a case to answer, the individual who was bullied may be subject to disciplinary and could ultimately be dismissed. However, it’s really good for employees to go forward with a complaint and say, this is the outcome that I am looking for.

Nicky Lowe [00:31:04]:
Yeah. So when you mentioned there that if an employer turns around and goes, oh, I think this is an informal resolution, and it might not be, what would you suggest somebody does in that instance?

Tina Chander [00:31:17]:
And this is the challenge, and it really much depends on the size of the business, because unfortunately some employees reach the end of the road in their organisation.

Nicky Lowe [00:31:27]:
Yeah.

Tina Chander [00:31:28]:
They’ve complained in writing, they’ve disputed that it should be dealt with informally, and there’s nowhere else to go in that organisation. And unfortunately, what inevitably happens is that employee feels so low and so worried and upset There’s lots of emotions that surround bullying and they go off on sick.

Nicky Lowe [00:31:52]:
Yeah.

Tina Chander [00:31:53]:
Larger organisations might have a better structure in place where there is space for an employee to go somewhere else if they are not happy. But ultimately, when it comes to feeling bullied, it’s not, it’s not for the employee to determine whether there is a complaint that is valid. or not. The employee must bring that claim forward. As an employment lawyer, as I mentioned earlier, Nikki, unfortunately I have to help employees that feel helpless.

Nicky Lowe [00:32:26]:
Yeah.

Tina Chander [00:32:27]:
And very often they don’t want to complain, and that is because they believe— they feel that they won’t be believed. The person is a brilliant, high performer that gets on with everyone else. They fear that they will be— they’ll be treated differently for complaining and they won’t be taken seriously. So employees won’t go forward as well. And that’s the challenge. What employers need to do is create a working environment where employees don’t feel scared to come forward, because that’s what it boils down to. It’s a fear.

Nicky Lowe [00:33:07]:
And I think this is the crux of the challenge, isn’t it? Because if you speak to any organization, I’m assuming there’s very few organizations where they would go, oh yeah, people are scared to come forward, we’ve got a terrible culture, we haven’t got psychological safety. Like, there’s very few employers that know that or will admit it. So there’s this gap because they’re like, there’s no problem here, therefore it must be safe. And what they’re not realizing is you’re not hearing the problems because it’s not safe. It’s not that the problem doesn’t exist. I imagine that’s a big part of what your work is, is about highlighting— assume that it is happening.

Tina Chander [00:33:44]:
And, and, and you’re quite correct there, Nikki, because what employers— unless they’ve had a tribunal claim, which is nothing to be shouting about if you’ve had a tribunal complaint, uh, unless you’ve got records saying we had this many people coming forward. The default position is this is a happy workforce, the culture is amazing, we don’t really get complaints, therefore we don’t need to develop our employees with ongoing training. We do have a policy somewhere, go and ask HR, but it’s never needed. You know, all these silly little attitudes will come forward rather than as a business owner, you have a responsibility Whether you know a problem exists or not, you are a business owner. You have under your roof employees that come into work and commit their day to you. So you have a responsibility to ensure a safe working environment. And there’s some— there’s an ongoing development piece there, Nikki, because unless employers proactively make space every single year to see what they have in place, to prevent bullying and harassment, or to prevent discriminatory conduct, to equip their employers with what’s the difference between banter and discrimination, for example. Unless they make space, regardless of whether they’ve had complaints or not, the chances are it is happening, they just don’t know.

Nicky Lowe [00:35:09]:
Yeah, and I know you’ve said that there is some significant change to UK employment law happening. Could you share a bit more about that, please?

Tina Chander [00:35:18]:
Yes, so on 30th of October 2026, so in a few weeks’ time, um, the law is expanding— I’m going to say it that way— to place more responsibility on employers to do all that they can to prevent sexual harassment. Now, I paused at the word all because that is the significant change. So employers have always had to try and prevent sexual harassment. But the introduction of the word all on the 30th of October means that employers need to proactively prevent it more than ever. And this is a really good time for employers to actually look at what is it that we do in this workplace. We perform well, our employees on the, on the face of it look happy, but But what are our reporting lines? What are we doing to ensure there is an ongoing safety for all our employees in any scenario that might be presented? So the law that comes into October requires employers to actually take some time out and have a look. So it’s not about do we need an update of a policy? And I’m not anti-policy. There is a place for them, and every employer should have a collection of poor policies, one of them being sexual harassment at work.

Tina Chander [00:36:41]:
So that will probably need amending. But more than ever, employers now need to think about, well, do I have staff, for example, that work in isolation or lone workers? Do I have staff that go to see customers? Or do I have staff that have to work at other companies’ premises? Start thinking about What— how are your staff made up? Do I have a receptionist that has to deal with any— deal with anyone that comes through the door every single day? And then start thinking about, well, what do we do as a business to prevent sexual harassment? The idea is to not wait for the complaint.

Nicky Lowe [00:37:20]:
And I think that’s, that’s really important because often people think about, oh, I’ve just got to— I’ve just got to educate internally. But as you say, with people that have contact with suppliers, contractors, customers. It reaches out that far?

Tina Chander [00:37:35]:
Correct, because the law extends to third-party harassment. And, you know, most employers don’t think about that because as far as they’re concerned, the third party is not their employee, so why do they need to think about it? But this law will make an employer Take some time out to look at what do you do with your third parties to ensure the safe working environment of your staff.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:07]:
Yeah, and I’m imagining for a lot of employers, they won’t even understand what we mean by sexual harassment. They might think of it as like a physical, but it goes beyond that. So, could you give us a little insight into what is covered in sexual harassment?

Tina Chander [00:38:24]:
So sexual harassment is behaviour that violates your dignity, that humiliates you, that potentially causes— very similar to bullying in some of the words I’m using— creates an environment which is unwanted. Okay. And the classic physical touch thought idea is not correct. So there are situations, and I kid you not, Nicky, where employers think they know what sexual harassment is. You can’t know everything. You need to invest in training. You need to invest in understanding what constitutes behaviours which are unwanted and therefore should be progressed. as a formal complaint.

Tina Chander [00:39:17]:
But sexual harassment can occur by Teams, digital, as we’ve mentioned. It can still be the physical touch, but it can be verbal. It can be an exchange of words, and an employee can feel sexually harassed. It can happen out of the clock-out time, so once the contracted hours have finished. It can happen at a work party or an organized event of some other kind. It can happen when your employee goes to visit a customer or client. So it’s really important that employers, first of all, seek to understand what is sexual harassment, then carry out a risk assessment on all the different tiers and personnel within their organization. Then look at what their policy currently states.

Tina Chander [00:40:10]:
Consider how you will prevent them. So, what are your reporting lines? Are they sufficient? Should they be amended? Should there be different ways to report sexual harassment? What are the consequences of that behaviour if it is found to be sexual harassment? Employees need to feel empowered that they will be taken seriously.

Nicky Lowe [00:40:31]:
So, I think if there was just, just even that element of this conversation, is there is this significant change.

Tina Chander [00:40:38]:
Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:40:38]:
And you can’t just kind of assume that you are ready for that, for that change.

Tina Chander [00:40:45]:
And I don’t think— you’re right, Nicky, but I don’t think, uh, employers are putting the subject on, on the agenda because 30th October feels ages away. So Maybe we’ll look at it the week before, or we’ll look at it once someone’s come forward and complained. But I think it’s really important that businesses remember that, that with bullying and sexual harassment, there is a wider piece to this. Those behaviours can affect someone’s personal life and can affect their working life for quite some time after the event. It can. Cause low morale in the organisation. It can affect the performance of other individuals because employees tend to talk to other employees regardless of whether they report. It can result in really good staff leaving, and therefore you— the business will have a recruitment challenge.

Tina Chander [00:41:43]:
But it also can lead to a poor reputational risk. And what business wants a bad reputation for not dealing with behaviours or being suggested widely that they condone such behaviours, or even worse, being found by a tribunal to have not done enough to prevent those behaviours.

Nicky Lowe [00:42:09]:
Yeah, so thank you. We’ve covered so much today. What is it you would want somebody listening to this, whether they are actually an So, I really want businesses to make that time.

Tina Chander [00:42:26]:
That’s all I’m asking for. Make that time. If it’s only an hour that you’ve got, that’s an hour well spent. But don’t wait for the law to change. Don’t wait for bullying to be legally defined. Make some time and start looking at what you have in place. Yeah, and I think that’s a really good point. And start considering external help, whether that is from lawyers or another company.

Tina Chander [00:42:49]:
But importantly, you can’t know everything, business owners. You need to stay in your lane. You’ve got to run a company, and you need to ensure that you have in place procedures and processes to prevent poor behaviours. And as for employees, individuals, if you are Encountering bullying, first of all, I’m sorry you’re going through that. This is an awful situation. Please speak to someone informally or formally, but you need to have your support network because bullying can impact your life for a long time. In terms of your employer, don’t just leave without trying to complain at the very least. And again, if you’re unsure of what to do, please seek external help.

Nicky Lowe [00:43:40]:
Brilliant. So with that, I am sure people, if they want external help, where could you point them? Can you share where people can find you, find your campaign?

Tina Chander [00:43:51]:
So I can be found on LinkedIn, and I can also be found at my law firm, Weightmans. So please feel free to email me at Weightmans. Um, I’m sure we can probably share my email address somewhere.

Nicky Lowe [00:44:05]:
I can put that in the show notes. So what’s your name on LinkedIn so people—

Tina Chander [00:44:08]:
Tina Chander. There’s no L, everyone. That’s a, that’s a mistake everyone makes. I can be contacted by Awakenings. The employment team at Awakenings is actually vast. There’s lots of us that are very passionate about what I’ve spoken about today. I, of course, am more than happy to support businesses and But there is lots of us here that are willing to provide that support.

Nicky Lowe [00:44:32]:
And your campaign, can you share your campaign as well?

Tina Chander [00:44:35]:
Yes, so this year End Workplace Bullying Day is on the 26th of October, which is a few days before the legislation comes into force on sexual harassment. So it’s timely because what employers should be doing now is looking at what they’ve got in place to meet their obligations. obligations to do all that they can to prevent sexual harassment. But when making those decisions and when looking at what’s in place, have a look at what you’re doing about preventing bullying as well. I’ve had a— I’ve been running this campaign for 4 years now. It’s the first year with weightment, so I’m very excited. So, on the 26th of October, that is a day where I say to everyone, share that you have done something to prevent workplace bullying, that you are making time to look at your policies and procedures, that you’re investing in training, for example, with your staff leading up to that particular day. I post a lot about what employers can do, tips for employees as well, and my aim is always to increase awareness, because if we don’t talk about bullying existing, it will never get dealt with.

Tina Chander [00:45:52]:
So I would love a world where I can end it, but if I can’t end it, then I want to do everything I can to prevent it.

Nicky Lowe [00:46:00]:
Amazing. Well, thank you for joining me, and thank you for the really important work that you’re, you’re doing.

Tina Chander [00:46:05]:
Thank you very much, Nicky.

Nicky Lowe [00:46:08]:
If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Wisdom for Working I’d love for you to share it on social media or with the amazing women in your life. I’d also love to connect with you, so head over to luminate-group.co.uk where you’ll find ways to stay in touch. And if this episode resonated with you, one of the best ways to support the show is by subscribing and leaving a review on iTunes. Your review helps other women discover this resource. So together we can lift each other up as we rise. So thanks for listening. Until next time, take care. Bye.