Nicky Lowe [00:00:00]:
Hi, it’s Nicky Lowe and welcome to the Wisdom for Working Mums podcast show. I’m your host and for nearly two decades now I’ve been an executive coach and leadership development consultant. And on this show I share evidence based insights from my coaching, leadership and psychological expertise and inspiring interviews that help women like you to combine your work, life and motherhood in a more successful and sustainable way. Join me and my special guests as we delve into leadership and lifestyle topics for women, empowering you to thrive one conversation at a time. I’m so happy that you’re here. And let’s get on with today’s episode. If you’ve followed me for a while, you’ll know that I adore Brene Brown.

Nicky Lowe [00:00:51]:
And I recently heard her say in an interview that her 35 year marriage is the hardest thing she’s ever navigated. And I felt that since becoming parents, my husband and I have had to work harder on our relationship than ever. And for context, we’ve been together for 31 years and been parents for only 13 of those. And it’s absolutely in those parenting years that it’s been the trickiest. And I used to believe that if a relationship was hard, it was wrong. Now I’ve learned that hard often needs. We’re growing if we can have the right conversations. And that’s why I’m thrilled to talk with today’s guest, Katie Rosler.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:31]:
Katie is a relationship strategist and licensed Therapist with over 15 years of clinical and coaching experience helping high achieving couples reconnect, realign and rebuild their partnership with purpose. Katie is the author of two books and she’s the host of the Relationship Reset podcast and has spoken on stages around the world. So we’re in good hands to have this conversation. And I also heard that Michelle Obama say that there were 10 years of her marriage that she didn’t like her husband, Barack Obama. And those years coincided with having young children while his career was soaring and she was the default parent. And I think that’s so relatable for so many working mums because it names a reality. Love can be strong and seasons can be brutally uneven. So in this episode we’ll unpack how relationships change in parenthood, how resentment can creep in, especially when the mental load spikes and the simple conversations that can move us back to teamwork, intimacy and trust.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:36]:
I won’t keep you any longer. Let’s welcome Katie. So welcome Katie. It is a pleasure to have you here.

Katie Rossler [00:02:43]:
Hi Nikki. Thank you for having me on your show.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:45]:
I’ve been wanting to have this conversation with you for a little while. And after hearing you on I had Meg Turcano, who is a guest on this podcast. I heard you on her podcast Changeology and was like, I’ve got to get Katie on.

Katie Rossler [00:02:59]:
Thank you.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:00]:
So for those that don’t know about you and your work, can you just give kind of a brief overview of what you do and how you’ve come to do it?

Katie Rossler [00:03:07]:
Yeah. So you know how the longer we’re in a relationship with our partner, the more it starts to feel like roommates?

Nicky Lowe [00:03:13]:
Yes.

Katie Rossler [00:03:14]:
That’s what I help with, is how do we rebuild and reconnect? Whether it’s. If you’re at the beginning, when you’re, you know, having kids or trying to decide to have kids and you start to feel sort of this or trains on two different tracks or later on as kids get a little bit older and you’re feeling a bit overwhelmed with juggling all the things with work and family life. And it feels a bit unfair. You know, all these different stages we go in in a relationship, there are invitations to rebuild. And so I help couples as a relationship strategist to figure out what strategy is best for them because, you know, we listen to the podcast and we read the books and they’re all excellent and. But they are written and spoken in such a way that it can apply more to the masses. But we’re also individualistic. I always say we’re like we’re own little smoothies.

Katie Rossler [00:04:04]:
Right. And there’s like a blend of all these flavors. And I tend to work with a lot of bicultural couples as well, being a bicultural relationship myself. So it’s how do we tailor these tools that are out there to our actual relationship, to what we’re really going through? You know, if our parents are aging and our kids are going through the preteen and teen years, or hey, we’re in the we’re not getting sleep because our kids aren’t sleeping in the night stage. And I’m so tired of wiping a, you know, a booty, whatever it might be like. All of these phases impact our relationship and being able to better understand what are the tools and strategies in this season that will effectively bring us closer together and later thriving. Because right now it’s survival mode. That’s the work that I do.

Nicky Lowe [00:04:54]:
I love that. And as I mentioned before, we hit record, I’ve followed your work for a while, and I think you just speak to the heart of the experience of what it’s like to be a parent and a Partner and navigate that intersection. So from your experience working in your kind of practice, what are the kind of things that impact the quality of connection once we enter that season of parenthood?

Katie Rossler [00:05:19]:
Yeah. One really big thing is taking each other for granted. Especially the longer we’re in a relationship together. It’s just sort of the expectation the other person will be there and vice versa. Right. And so we stop, really. It’s not just that. Hey, yeah.

Katie Rossler [00:05:34]:
Thank you for unloading the dishwasher. Thank you for remembering to do this or that. It’s gratitude for who the person is in your life. And when I talk with couples, I will see them sort of blink when I go, okay, I want you to do this gratitude exercise. Share what you’re grateful for about who they are in your life, what they do for you. What is it about just their essence and being that you are grateful for? And because we’re so inclined to look at all the negatives, we’re so focused on what they’re doing wrong and annoying us, and we’re so burnt out and tired, our brain is like, wait, what? There was. There’s positives beyond the actions they take. And it’s a good example of how we also get into just project mode.

Katie Rossler [00:06:19]:
I hear often, like, we do, we work great as a team, but there’s no romance and there’s no connection. And that is survival mode. Right. Like, we gotta drop the. I mean, I work with couples who haven’t had sex between four and five years because it’s just this. How can we even think about that? Or we’re on different, you know, kind of timelines of, like, what time of day we were interested. Like, all these things start to shift. It’s like, how can we think about connecting when we’re just trying to survive? And it’s the same with that gratitude piece.

Katie Rossler [00:06:52]:
All I can see is what they’re doing or not doing, what they’re saying or not saying versus who does this person represent to me, and how can I be grateful for that? So that’s a really big problem I’m seeing. The other thing is, our communication dynamics may be amazing at work and with our friends, people understand us, but all of a sudden, in our relationship and at home, it’s like we’re speaking two different languages and you just don’t understand me. You don’t get me. Nobody else has this difficulty. And yet it’s because we believe that the communication skills that we use in other relationships, especially at work, should work in our. A romantic relationship. But doesn’t it’s a different communication style. It’s a different level of emotional intelligence that most of us were not taught and we definitely didn’t have modeled for us.

Katie Rossler [00:07:41]:
And it’s something people don’t talk about enough. We hear things like from the Gottmans, you know, the Four Horsemen. And there’s contempt and defensiveness and stonewalling and criticism. Great. But what exactly why are those happening in our relationship? What exactly do they look like? Because it looks different in the workplace than it can work look in a romantic relationship. And once we start to understand that and sort of the deeper level for us, the roots of why we jump towards those things, why we jump towards defensiveness, why we stonewall as a way of protecting. Where did we learn these things from? And it’s not always because our parent did that or our caregiver, but because we learned early on that was a great survival technique to get through childhood. Not that your childhood had to be traumatic.

Katie Rossler [00:08:37]:
We all just had things where we learned, oh, this behavior makes it so I get in less trouble or, you know, I get more praise or whatever it might be. If I overachiever and work really hard, then everybody loves me. But in my relationship, I don’t get that same acknowledgement. What’s wrong? Why? So I’m going to try harder. I’m going to do more. But why don’t they acknowledge me? It’s because you’re trying to use an old template or a template that works at work in your relationship, and that’s not how it is. So those are the biggest issues. I really am seeing more and more with couples.

Nicky Lowe [00:09:10]:
I love the nuance around this and I love that you call yourself a relationship strategist because often people say I’m a relationship counselor or a relationship therapist. And actually what you’re giving people is strategies that are going to help them, as you say, in their smoothie, like in your mix and your blend. Here’s the strategies. So what do you think that couples in this season of life, of kind of perhaps having demanding careers and kind of the intersection of parenthood. What do you think that they underestimate about the impact of this season in life?

Katie Rossler [00:09:41]:
They really do underestimate the fact that you will go into project mode like it is survival mode. Is, are we eating? Are we trying to get sleep? Am I juggling all of the things that I need to and not dropping any balls? They also, especially if you’re high achievers. And I imagine those listening here are, you know, like the go getters and want to try to Balance it all. I like the example, and you may have heard this analogy of it’s like we’re juggling rubber and glass balls. And the glass balls are the ones that if they drop and if they drop enough, they really break and shatter and you can’t put them back together. That’s our health. That’s our core relationships. It’s like it’s our self care.

Katie Rossler [00:10:25]:
Right? Those are the things that are so important. And the rubber balls are the things that if we let go, it may not be this done the same way as we do it. It may not be done as effectively, but they’ll keep bouncing or somebody else can pick them up. But we get so good at shining the rubber ball to look like it’s glass and convince ourselves only we can do that. It is only us who are at the best level. We make ourselves the Beyonce of so many things. Right? I’m so important. Everybody knows this.

Katie Rossler [00:10:56]:
Only I can do this. And it’s like, no, actually, that’s a rubber ball. But you’ve put your self worth into that. And what will happen in these seasons of stress? We try to find purpose and passion and our identity in the doing because that’s all we can right now. In survival mode. Am I being a good mom? Did I remember? If you’re in that stage, the sippy cup and the snacks. Oh, my God, I forgot the spare change of clothes. Okay.

Katie Rossler [00:11:26]:
That doesn’t mean you failed as a mom. But we internalize. I’ve failed as a mom. Oh, my husband and I are having the same fight. We keep having the same repeat fight. We’re just not compatible. No, you guys have two different points of view and different value systems on a particular topic. It’s about either respecting each other’s differences or figuring out what the compromise is.

Katie Rossler [00:11:46]:
This doesn’t mean it’s failing, right? It’s, you’re not failing. You’re not going to be abandoned just because this thing keeps happening. But we, we create all these scripts around the doing and the problems. And in survival mode, in stress and burnout, we see more problems. Our brain is. Survival mode is literally, I want to stay alive, right? Like, I want to stay alive. So when our partner says or does something that upsets us, our brain is like, mayday, mayday, ship is going down. Or how dare they? Or we react.

Katie Rossler [00:12:20]:
Instead of taking a step back and going, let me see the context of the situation. We’re both burned out. We’re both exhausted. He said this thing, I said this thing. What do we want to see? Change. What is the point of our discussion? I often tell couples, get out a notepad and just write, like, literally, what was the first thing that started this? And I guarantee you, both of you will have different trigger points. It won’t be the thing. But whoever brought the problem to the table or said the thing needs to get very clear on.

Katie Rossler [00:12:49]:
This is what I was trying to say, or this is what I need. You don’t help enough. You’re not doing enough around the house. I just need more help. It’s all on my shoulders. That’s a really broad statement. And you know, with kids, if you’re like, go clean your room. And they’re like 5, 6, 7.

Katie Rossler [00:13:04]:
Heck, my oldest is 11. Even now, it’s over, like, what? The room, like what? And then they go play and do something else, right? I need more help. You don’t do enough. It’s all on my shoulders. One, victim, villain role, that doesn’t help anybody. You’re automatically no longer partners in that situation. And two, you’re not being specific because you probably don’t quite know exactly what help you need. You just want less on your shoulders.

Katie Rossler [00:13:34]:
You want less responsibility. So getting really clear on paper, I need more help with pickups and drop offs. I need more help and not this. You should know, you see me do it all. Why can’t you? Because then what happens is they go and do what they think is helpful. And I love this, especially the husbands. I see this pattern. They go and do the thing they’re good at or the thing that’s easier for them that you’re like, that didn’t help at all.

Katie Rossler [00:14:07]:
My husband, he did this a couple years ago where I said, hey, can you just help? I just need a couple mornings for you to help. This week I’m just really slammed with a lot. So he would go down and he’d start emptying the dishwasher. He get the kids breakfast, but he start emptying the dishwasher. And I said, honey, that’s great, thank you. Can you make their little snack boxes that they need? Like that’s more helpful. I can do the unload the dishwasher five hours from now, but they’re about to leave in 20 minutes and they need their snack box. And he was like, oh.

Katie Rossler [00:14:38]:
And I thought, yeah, because you have to then think, what am I going to put in it? What do they want to eat? What? You know, I’ve got to prep all the different pieces of it. And we had that discussion. He’s like, well, I thought I was helping and then he got defensive because what he heard was, you’re failing, you’re failing at helping. You’re not enough. And I felt disrespected because you’re helping in the area that’s the least of the help areas I need. But I wasn’t specific.

Nicky Lowe [00:15:04]:
No, I know, I wasn’t clear.

Katie Rossler [00:15:06]:
Right.

Nicky Lowe [00:15:06]:
And it reminds me of I was talking to a friend recently and she had exactly the same situation where trying to get the kids out of the house with was becoming an issue. And her husband was off work because he’d had an operation. And she was like, oh, if he’s off, he might be able to help a bit more. And he decided that he was going to rip the bathroom out this morning. And she was like, it was chaos. There was dust everywhere. And in her head she was like, at what level is that helping? But that was almost like his language of love. It’s like, you want a new bathroom and I’m doing this.

Nicky Lowe [00:15:39]:
And he couldn’t see that. That actually wasn’t helpful in that moment. And you can see where the conflict happens because as you say, it’s difficult. Different perspectives and different viewpoints.

Katie Rossler [00:15:49]:
Yeah. Our brains will go to the easiest route of fixing something or quote, helping. Right?

Nicky Lowe [00:15:55]:
Yeah.

Katie Rossler [00:15:56]:
So we have to get clearer. And so there’s this assumption in survival mode that we can both at some point think clearer than the other. And that’s just not how it works. You know, I remember at the beginning of my oldest life, like the first two years, I stopped working, I sold my private practice in the States and I was like, okay, I’m going to be a stay at home mom. I’m going to do what my mother did. I didn’t realize that I was way too driven as an individual to just do that, but I tried. Right. And I remember being so angry at my husband because he’d come home and be like, what did you do all day? And I was like, kept a kid alive.

Katie Rossler [00:16:33]:
And I’m like, I survived. And I would just try to grasp this whole, like, you get to go to work, you get a break from this. And for him, it’s like, you get to be at home, you get a break from this. We both thought the same of each other. We both thought the other had it better. And until we stopped and said, what does it feel like to have laundry constantly piling up? It feels like an email inbox constantly piling up. What does it feel like when your child needs more and more? It feels like when your employees are constantly asking you questions and never taking the lead to take care of things themselves. We both had our own ways of feeling, you know, neglected, uncared for, people not taking responsibility for things or whatever.

Katie Rossler [00:17:20]:
Right. Like we were. But instead of saying, hey, we’re both going through it in our own ways, it was just easier to say, it’s so much easier for you. And I love this when I talk with couples, especially those who have, like, partners who are consultants or in sales, where they have to travel. You get to travel, you get to eat at restaurants, you get to stay at hotels and sleep without kids waking you up. And they’re like, I literally have to get up at 6am I got to be there for the breakfast. I got to be on point. I can’t say something wrong.

Katie Rossler [00:17:48]:
The presentation has. Where in that time am I taking, like, downtime for myself? Maybe I get 30 minutes at the gym. Well, that’s 30 minutes I don’t get. Right. There’s just this debate of who has it worse. And in survival mode, that’s. We’re just clinging to the. I am the victim of life worse than you are.

Katie Rossler [00:18:09]:
It’s so hard for me. Can’t you see that? Can’t you acknowledge it? You’re never gonna win, neither of you.

Nicky Lowe [00:18:17]:
Yeah. And it made me think, when you were talking about the balls, that I. I think I made the assumption that my relationship was a rubber ball, because I’m like, I can let that drop. Like, in this season of life, I haven’t got the time, the energy. It will take care of itself. And to some degree, you hope there’s resilience in your relationship. That. That is true to a degree, but I think I overplayed that.

Nicky Lowe [00:18:40]:
I remember before I had children, good friends of ours had had children. And I remember them saying something that at the time, really struck me, and I was like, oh, not sure I agree with that. And they said, oh, our marriage is more important to us than our children. And I remember thinking, ooh, that was not a narrative I was used to. So they would prioritize date nights. They would go away for weekends and leave children when they were quite young. And I remember being quite judgmental of that before I had my own children. And then looking kind of back, I’m like, actually, they were onto something because they knew that actually their marriage was the container for their family.

Nicky Lowe [00:19:19]:
And if that wasn’t happy and healthy, then it directly impacted the children. And so I think they recognized it was a glass ball. And I probably got this assumption that it was a rubber ball, and that Children are the glass ball. And, yeah, I wonder if you see that or hear that in your work completely.

Katie Rossler [00:19:36]:
I mean, if you think about the generations before us, the woman typically took care of the kids. They were the glass balls. And you didn’t really see relationship, health and growth. They were practical, right? That survival mode. Now we all get it. We look back and go, like, now I see why you guys argued a lot, why you guys were stressed a lot. But I think most people consider it a rubber ball. Their relationship is just something that’ll bounce back.

Katie Rossler [00:20:03]:
We’ll work on it when the kids are older. When the kids are out of the house. I hear that often. And, you know, I’ll work with couples who have their kids out of the house. And it is like, we’re really having to go, like, do the two of you want to stay in this? Because you never built enough of a foundation to get through that period of time. And then in it, you kind of created your own lives and you like living that way. I mean, I’ve even talked to women in particular. Like, I kind of like that I sleep in my own bedroom and he’s on the opposite end of the house.

Katie Rossler [00:20:34]:
And, like, you know, it’s functional. I’m like, okay, well, you know, generations before you would be applauding you. That’s how they did it. It worked. But the question is, is this what you want for your life? And I’m finding more and more couples, you know, because it is a privilege that we get to be in relationships for love, and we get to stay because we want to versus that we have to. So many generations of women before had to stay. I have to stay in the abuse. I have to stay in the.

Katie Rossler [00:21:03]:
With the narcissist. I have to stay in these things because what is there? I’ll be ostracized as a divorced woman with kids, right? Like, very different times. And now women are making more income. Their ability to work and work for themselves is higher. So it’s like, oh, I don’t actually have to stay. Well, do I want to? And I think especially those who are listening who are in perimenopause. I just want to remind all of us, and for those who are not. This is the first time they’re hearing it.

Katie Rossler [00:21:33]:
It is normal to question your relationship in this phase multiple times. It might be daily where you’re like, should I stay or should I go? Like, I’m not really happy. I’m not getting what I need out of this. But perimenopause is an invitation for evolution, right? It’s a time for us to grow and develop. Like a metamorphosis, if you think caterpillar to butterfly. But the caterpillar goes into a cocoon. And that phase of our lives is perimenopause. And most women don’t realize the caterpillar actually eats itself.

Katie Rossler [00:22:05]:
It basically digests itself and turns to mush in the cocoon. That’s why it needs the container. And then in that process, it starts to create the platelet switchover. And you see, there’s the wing, there’s the leg, there’s, you know, the antenna, there’s the body. We have to go to mush, which is, am I happy in my career? Am I happy with the life I’ve created? Do I want to live here? Do I like this house? Do I? Am I happy? We’re going to ask. We’re mush. The structure of how it was before isn’t working for me anymore. And if we hadn’t been talking to our partner through that process of, like, I’m kind of wondering about this and I’m thinking this and I’m questioning this, and I’m wondering, like, if we’re not having those conversations with all.

Katie Rossler [00:22:47]:
Lot of us are not, it will appear as a shock to our partner. Why? Why are you questioning that? Like, you’ve always worked there. Like, why do you want to do things different? This is how it works for us. Why are you going to change the system up just because you don’t like it or uncomfortable? Right? And it’s like, because it’s not working. And. And I like to think of as women, as moms. We’re the sun and everything else is planets that go around us. If we’re not vibrant and bright, the system’s not working.

Katie Rossler [00:23:18]:
So if we’re not happy, it’s time to have those discussions about, hey, kids, I need you to step up more. I need you to take on more things. It can’t just be on my shoulders. Hey, partner, you know, I know we’ve done things this way for so long. I’d like us to consider doing it differently now. It usually comes up out as, I’m so sick of doing all the laundry. I am tired. I’m going away for the weekend.

Katie Rossler [00:23:41]:
And figure out how to do it yourselves, right? Like, that’s how it comes out. It’d be great if we could temper that a bit again, write it down on paper, figure out how we want to present it. But it is a shock to our partners because they’re not understanding we’re in a cocoon and we’re mush. We’re figuring out that every cell in our body is changing, which also means everything in our relationship is changing. We’re half of it.

Nicky Lowe [00:24:05]:
And I love how you normalize that. And that leads me on to another question I’ve got about what are some of the myths that you see that people believe about, oh, if it’s a happy relationship or if it’s a good relationship, then what. What do you see kind of appear in your practice?

Katie Rossler [00:24:22]:
Oh, definitely. I love. The couples are like, oh, we don’t. We don’t really argue. Like, I’m worried about you. Why aren’t you arguing? Are you sure you’re not arguing? Maybe you’re having debates. That could be arguing too. How do you define arguing? But if it’s like, no, no, we just.

Katie Rossler [00:24:38]:
And then eventually, like, I just, you know, I. I just go to my own room and I, like, deal with. I go for a walk, and I’m like, but do you ever talk about it again? No. No, that’s not good. So not arguing doesn’t mean a sign of a healthy relationship. In fact, arguing is passionately a way to connect and to get through kind of what I like to call sandpaper moments. Like, this is uncomfortable. I need to grow.

Katie Rossler [00:25:03]:
I want to be. You know, I want to better understand your point of view. So we need argument. The other thing is, a lot of people think if we’re having problems, that’s a sign that the relationship is going downhill. The reality is every healthy relationship, and this is the beauty of the scientific research that’s out here now on couples, is we go through a period of harmony. Things are fine, good. Yay, we’re lovey. And then disharmony.

Katie Rossler [00:25:28]:
Something triggered me, Something you said upset me, even if I was hangry or didn’t sleep well, and I’m reacting like, so something shifted it. You’ll see these on date nights, right? We’re like, oh, we’re going date night. Da, da, da. And then he says something or you do something, and it’s like, boom. And it’s disharmony. It’s disconnect. How dare you. We were in harmony, and you messed it up.

Katie Rossler [00:25:51]:
The whole night’s ruined. Right? Well, the true health of a relationship isn’t the disharmony or not. It’s the repair. How quickly can we be resilient and bounce back from it? Hey, I’m really sorry I said that thing. Let’s, like, hit the reset button and start over and, like, get Back in a better place. Can both of you do that? Or are you guys holding on to grudges and resentment? Can you forgive quickly? Have you guys worked through those things? So you can be like, yeah, we all make mistakes. We all say the wrong thing, we roll our eyes, we huff, whatever. Okay, we’re going to let that go.

Katie Rossler [00:26:24]:
We’re going to move on. So most of the work I do with couples, especially in the early stages of my work with them, is how do you repair effectively for the relationship? So that’s a misconception. It should be really easy, and we shouldn’t have these times of disharmony. You’re going to. You’re supposed to. These are sandpaper moments. They help you grow. They teach you what repairs work.

Katie Rossler [00:26:47]:
And I’ll do one little caveat, that we have to be really careful, that repairs, they matter to the situation. For example, I was working with a couple, and one of them tend to lie a lot about things. Small lies, but they add up, right? Little like, you know, oh, yeah, oh, no, I didn’t forget to take out the trash. I was, you know, these types of things, but they were lies. And his way of repairing after being caught was to bring flowers or to make dinner. And her request constantly was just stop lying or admit it. If your impulse is to lie, then in that moment after you say it, go, I just lied. I’m sorry.

Katie Rossler [00:27:29]:
Just own it. That ownership will repair things so fast. So often I like to say you give cough syrup for broken leg. If a doctor prescribed you cough syrup for your broken leg, you’d be like, I’m going to a different doctor. And clearly I’m writing a Google review that this is not a safe doctor to go to. It doesn’t actually heal the broken bone. So make sure your repairs heal whatever disturbance was caused. Even if you don’t think the leg should be broken.

Katie Rossler [00:27:59]:
I don’t think that should have caused that. Who cares? It did. They feel a certain way. They’re upset. Hey, I take ownership that I’ve caused this within you. I may not understand it, but I definitely don’t want you to feel this way. Right? So this, this disharmony is normal repair. Repair in the ways that actually mean something.

Katie Rossler [00:28:19]:
And most of the time your partner is telling you, if you would just this, I’d feel better. And we have to listen to that. Stop. You know, don’t bring flowers.

Nicky Lowe [00:28:27]:
I love that. And one of the things that I’ve gone on with the journey with my husband is that I came from a family that were Very much minimizers. So my mum and dad, I heard them argue once I can either I ever. And so I thought that was a healthy relationship. My husband’s parents are maximizers, so they would. And so I’d got beliefs about what kind of good conflict was or that no conflict was good. And actually learning that actually conflict is just growth trying to happen. If you can lean into it and do it in a conscious way, as you say about, well, let’s consciously repair it, let’s consciously lean in to have those conversations.

Nicky Lowe [00:29:07]:
And you know, me and my husband have really had to work on leaning into. We kind of had both had this assumption that, you know, we both run our own businesses and we would hire business coaches, we would put effort into our businesses. But almost like our marriage should be effortless if it’s right, if it’s good, like it shouldn’t require any attention. It should just be this magical unicorn that is just perfect without any attention. And we both came to the realization of why is it in other areas of our life we are high achievers, we’ll absolutely put the effort in. We’ll invest and do what’s needed, hire the experts to help us. But if we did that in our marriage, there’s either shame or guilt or there’s this assumption that it’s wrong. If we’ve got to go and get external help.

Katie Rossler [00:29:51]:
Yes, I see this on repeat. I see it in my own relationship. And some of it for us is a cultural difference. My husband is German and it’s this. In our culture, we don’t do that. You don’t ask for help. You should find it within yourself. And I’m like, I think Viktor Frankl would say differently, but okay, he would say you can also go and get support because that’s his work.

Katie Rossler [00:30:13]:
He did. But being able to understand that this is where the business side, you know, I was saying earlier, you might be amazing at communication and business and how you organize and things, but that’s not what you bring into the relationship. The motivation you have to improve and grow in your work world should be the same level of motivation you want to improve and grow in relationship. And when I’m working with a couple that first session, I say, I need you to treat this like you want a promotion. You want that next position in your company. Give it your all, learn the skills. I want you day in and day, night listening to the podcast on this topic. And so I make sure when I work with couples, they’ve got a private podcast with like little 10 to 12 minute hey, focus on this.

Katie Rossler [00:30:57]:
Think about this. That they’ve got workbooks, worksheets, things to be constantly doing the same things as you would with a business coach. Let’s review this. What’s working, what’s not. Where are the numbers in your year? What are the months that are the hardest? I guarantee you it’s not out of the blue that, you know, September, when the kids go back to school, that it’s not a little like, if you notice these patterns, what can you do? What would you do in your business? You would create some fail safes. Right. Like, let’s be prepared for this. Or summer, Summer we have maybe less clients or less work.

Katie Rossler [00:31:32]:
How do we save up to make sure we can pay the bills then? Same in a relationship. Holidays are coming. This is the time where it feels a bit of a drought in our relationship. What can we do to foster a stronger relationship during the season? Let’s use some of those skills into how we interact with our partner in a good way. Right. In the ways that support us. And it’s such a fine dance. And it’s so fun to work with these couples and kind of see what they bring to the table when they’re willing to treat it like they want that job promotion in their relationship.

Nicky Lowe [00:32:06]:
So if somebody’s listening, going, I’m a new parent and I actually want to protect my relationship and I want to avoid some of these traps and. But I’m tired, I’ve got no time. Like, what kind of tips or strategies could you offer somebody that’s at that season in their life?

Katie Rossler [00:32:23]:
Yeah. So the easiest that here’s two, one, go Take the five love languages test. It’s easy, it’s online, it’s free. Have your partner do it. Find out what each of your love languages is. And don’t give your partner your love language. Give your partner their love language.

Nicky Lowe [00:32:43]:
So for somebody that’s not come across love languages because I love this, it’s such a powerful but simple tool. Can you share a little bit about what do we mean by love language?

Katie Rossler [00:32:52]:
Absolutely. So there’s a therapist who after about 20, 30 years and now much longer of work, had discovered that there were particularly five styles of showing love. And so we called them the five love languages. And it’s Gary Chapman. And the first one is Acts of Service. So these are the people who, you know will clean the house or take care of, do the laundry. Don’t ask for like, you know, they don’t ask before they do they go in and do we have those friends right or like, they come in and they’re like, here, I got this. I don’t worry, I take care of it.

Katie Rossler [00:33:27]:
And you’re like, acts of service. That’s their love language. Then there’s words of affirmation. Not just thank you, but you are amazing to me. You bring so much light to my life like that. That makes them feel so much love. That just feels like, wow. And they’re amazing at writing letters too, right? Then we have gift giving.

Katie Rossler [00:33:47]:
And the people who are not gift givers think that this is, like, materialistic. No. You could pick a flower, you could, you know, find something out of a place that’s free and be like, I thought of you and I brought you this gift. And they’re going to hold on to that because in that moment, you stopped and thought of them. Then there’s quality time. And quality time isn’t always just sitting on the couch and watching something. It’s like, go for a walk together, you know, spend time. They might be the ones who are like, I want to go to the restaurant and, you know, have a meal with you.

Katie Rossler [00:34:20]:
And you’re like, I hate going to restaurants. But it’s like, I want the quality time with you without the kids. So it’s being able to, like, step outside of your normal routines and have that special time for just you. And then the last one. And now I’m drawing a blank. Hold on. So we’ve got. If you remember it, Nikki, tell me.

Nicky Lowe [00:34:39]:
Yeah, I’m trying to go through and.

Katie Rossler [00:34:40]:
Say, you’ve got physical touch. I should know this. It’s mine. Physical touch. So we have physical touch. And physical touch is not sexual every time, right? Like, people think like, you know, oh, it’s, woohoo. We’re gonna. Those are the ones who are really erotic and romantic.

Katie Rossler [00:34:56]:
No, it’s, you know, it’s the rubbing of the shoulders, the playing footsie under the table, holding hands, you know, caressing your arm when. When they get that touch, they love it. And so this is what happens. We go through life then showing our love language and going. Our partner’s like, I don’t really feel loved by you, but I did this. I hold your hand, I write you love letters, okay? And it, like, falls short and like, why don’t you see my love? And I’ve even heard couples say, well, you should know. It’s my love language, so you should know. And I go, okay.

Katie Rossler [00:35:30]:
But it’s not how they receive it. It’s a bit like in American Europe, you know, we have different light plug things so it’s like trying to, like, jam it. Like, this should light up. This should work. No, it’s not. It’s not the right receiver. So being able to go, okay, My partner’s love language is acts of service. Even though I think it should just be automatic.

Katie Rossler [00:35:52]:
They do this thing or whatever. I’m going to go the extra mile and take something off their to do list. List. Or even though my partner’s love language is gift giving and I think it’s ridiculous and materialistic, I’m going to buy them that one, like, candy bar that they really love or a special candle that has a scent from our first, you know, couple months together. And you’re going to see your partner light up. So go learn your love languages. And usually we have, like, two that are strong and try to daily do something small that’s in that direction for your partner’s love language and vice versa. Right.

Katie Rossler [00:36:26]:
So that they need to be doing something for you. So that would be the first thing. And the second thing is weekly. Have a couple’s check in. It can be Sunday night, Sunday afternoon. It can be, you know, first thing in the morning. Whatever you both know if you’re a night owl or morning bird, but, like, just whatever works for you. Yes.

Katie Rossler [00:36:43]:
The kids can be driving insane, running around, and you just say, like, we just need 15 minutes for setting a timer. Watch something, whatever it might be. Right. I always say 20 to 30 minutes is best. Where you just go, how are we? What do we need this week to support each other. How can we feel more connected and loved? Not who’s doing what, what’s on the calendar. Do not go logistics. I call that chief household officer, you know, task Cho.

Katie Rossler [00:37:09]:
It’s like you’re the CEO of your home. Like, let that be a separate meeting. In fact, it should be. Don’t talk practical stuff. Talk romance stuff. Talk about your relationship. Hey, I’m not feeling as loved lately. Oh, gosh.

Katie Rossler [00:37:22]:
I want you to feel loved. What are some things I can do this week? Don’t get defensive. That’s not, like, great. Okay. But I do all these things. That’s survival mode talking. Take a deep breath. Your partner’s not feeling loved.

Katie Rossler [00:37:34]:
What could I do to support you? Because then I’m not wasting energy doing things you’re not seeing. Right. Like, it saves me. So have that weekly check. I’d say those are the two biggest things. If you’re in the beginning season of love parenthood, make those priorities because.

Nicky Lowe [00:37:50]:
And. And I think they’re two really simple, like, you’ve you’ve, you’ve distilled it down to two really simple, which I think is powerful, particularly at that season. And what I’m hearing there is about actually is keeping in connection. Because again, what we’ve learned is you can, you can navigate any conflict if you’re in connection, but if you lose that connection, it’s really difficult to, to navigate that kind of conflict and knowing that conflict’s just growth trying to happen. But if you, if you’re not in connection, you can’t grow with it.

Katie Rossler [00:38:18]:
Yes. Well, the best way to calm anyone’s nervous system is connection. Right. When we feel the oxytocin release of trust, of, you know, physical touch, of I am safe. Oh, that survival mode isn’t as impactful on our bodies. In fact, it’s. Think of it as its own relationship therapy and personal therapy, and to connect how it actually benefits the two of you. I can’t stand you today, but I’m going to play footsie with you under the table because I know that actually makes us feel both kind of giggle a little and relax.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:54]:
So if somebody’s at the point where I’ve heard you use this term, either a silent or an invisible divorce, so they’re, they’ve kind of unconsciously left their relationship, and so they’re absolutely not in connection. Can you speak a little bit to that about actually what is it and how you might be able to bring back to connection if you find yourself in that place?

Katie Rossler [00:39:16]:
Definitely. So the invisible divorce. Exactly. Which, like, we’re great teamwork and we get things practically done, but there’s no romance, there’s no connection. I’m not being vulnerable. I’m not sharing emotionally, and I have an idea of what’s going on in my partner’s life, but I don’t know their inner workings. I don’t even know what their goals and visions are beyond maybe their work. But as, as a person, I don’t really know them anymore and I know they don’t know me.

Katie Rossler [00:39:39]:
Right. That’s just. We just function when that starts to happen. And I, for me, some red flags are when it’s. I’d rather spend time with my friends than spend time with my partner. And it’s not like 100% in one category and 100% in the other. But it’s like if a majority of the time you’d rather do that because you have more fun or they get you better or they feel, you know, they care about me. That’s a, like, ooh, we’re in that territory of there’s an emotional and silent divorce happening.

Katie Rossler [00:40:12]:
When that occurs, I usually have a woman write down the list of all of the things. Or man. But since we’re talking largely to one, write down the list of all of the things that annoy you about your partner. All of the things, because you’ll be really good at writing the list. Doesn’t matter how many pages you need, but write them all down. And then I say, I want you to star the things that are actually just really annoying and circle the ones that have an emotional resentment towards. And for example, I was working with a woman who really resented her husband around his snoring because he wasn’t willing. Like, he kind of would go get help, but he wouldn’t go the extra mile to really try to figure out how to stop this so that they both got better sleep.

Katie Rossler [00:40:59]:
And so she wrote it on her list. And I was like, tell me about the snoring. And she was. She got so passionate as she talked about it. You know, not just like, I don’t like how he chews or breathes. It’s like. And then he. And he won’t do this.

Katie Rossler [00:41:14]:
And I’ve tried and I have sent him all these websites and all. And I was like, what is this? What’s the core wound here? What is the deeper piece? And as she spoke, I could hear it come out really loudly. And she didn’t say it, but I said to her, so really what you’re saying is you don’t think you matter enough to him that he would take the time and put away his uncomfortability of going to the doctor again and saying, admitting this isn’t working, and I might need to do something different and I might need to be uncomfortable and get a sleep study done. Because he loves you so much, because you matter so much, he wants your sleep to matter just as much as the sleep he’s getting. And she broke down and was like, yes. So we have to be really intentional and vulnerable with ourselves to say, what is you annoy me. And what is. There’s a core wound here that when you do this thing, it brings it up on repeat.

Katie Rossler [00:42:06]:
And though it might seem something like small, like, well, it’s not small, but, you know, snoring, and I’m not getting good sleep. But at the core of it, what you show me is this. When we can do that, then we can see what the real work has to be done in the relationship and also the real work within us. When I work with couples, I tell you I also expect to see you individually because you’re going to have like 50% of the work is just you. Yeah, Your stuff.

Nicky Lowe [00:42:32]:
And it’s really easy, isn’t it, in a relationship to go, oh, it’s all them. It’s because they do that. It’s because I’m carrying all of the, you know, domestic load. And, you know, that has a real impact. It does. But as you say, it becomes this victim villain dynamic that is really then difficult to break.

Katie Rossler [00:42:50]:
Definitely. I love that you brought up the gender role. Traditional gender roles can come out. We fall into them without always meaning to. Right. And I think about those who are in, like, their early 30s now, who. It’s much different, this sort of presentation of how we’re going to be in relationship, because I think the generations now they’re in their 40s and 50s and early 60s, started to shift. Like, we need to shift this, but I don’t quite know how because we don’t have a map.

Nicky Lowe [00:43:20]:
Yes.

Katie Rossler [00:43:20]:
So we’re figuring it out. And the problem is, as women, we’re like, okay, we can work and we want more balance in the home. But no one ever taught our partners how to be more emotionally intelligent so they can hold the problems and emotions of our children. No one taught our partners, okay, and here’s how you. You step up in these things and see the projects that are in the kitchen and see the project, you know, beyond some household stuff, Right. The renovation of the bathroom. Like, how. How do you see the.

Katie Rossler [00:43:52]:
How do you remember that the kid needs shots around their bir. Birthday time? And did they go to the dentist? Like, that’s not ever been something they’ve had to be programmed to. To think about. But many of us, especially, like I was the oldest of the two, I was immediately into, like, babysitting. I got to think about these things. Like, I was conditioned to already be the caretaker and to be the thinker of all those things. So a lot of the time, our resentment towards our partner, it is because we’re frustrated of the inequality. It’s valid, it’s there.

Katie Rossler [00:44:24]:
But we have expectations of them where nobody sat down and taught them the toolkit either. And we’re angry that they didn’t stop and go, I don’t have the tools for this. I’ve got to figure it out. But, you know, other than us complaining, which it becomes sort of the squeaky wheel that sometimes gets oiled, sometimes doesn’t, how do we help them? How do we empower them to go and do that work themselves? Right. And That’s a lot of the work. When I work with couples, as I say, I want to see you both individually because he’s usually there. He’s like, I want to do this work. But how she’s going about telling me my pride is too strong.

Katie Rossler [00:45:00]:
Like, I just can’t. I can’t hear it from her. But they’re willing to do that work in a different way. And hyper independent women have to take a step back.

Nicky Lowe [00:45:13]:
I’ve learned that the hard way, and it wasn’t easy.

Katie Rossler [00:45:18]:
It’s so uncomfortable. Our nervous system likes control, but the moment we say, I want more help, I want him to be more equal in certain things. He has to be allowed to do it his way in his timing. And that is. Oh, it grates at our nerves. I have shown you 20 million times how to fold the laundry the way I like. I have shown you how to do the dishwasher the way I like. I have shown you how to make a meal a certain way.

Katie Rossler [00:45:46]:
Okay, that’s about you. Your partner is their own smoothie. Right. Their own person. Let them figure it out. Do the way they want to let go of. It has to be a certain way. The hyper independence will ruin the dynamic of connection in a relationship and the ability for the relationship to become more equal because we think our way is better.

Katie Rossler [00:46:08]:
And that contempt starts to come into play. The hierarchy of my way is the right way, my way is the better way. And if you’re in one of those relationships where you’re like that, but around finances, he’s more like that, then you know how this feels. I think we should save and I think we should do this. You spend too much, you know, like, that’s the same level of you don’t do this correctly in the home. You don’t think about these things. You don’t take this dynamic. It shows up.

Katie Rossler [00:46:36]:
And it’s not always one against the other. A different topic. It’s flipped.

Nicky Lowe [00:46:40]:
That’s interesting. So I am sure there is people listening, going, actually, everything you’ve said or a lot of what you’ve said I can relate to. And I feel like I want to lean in to have some conversations. And they may feel like hard conversations with their partner. What advice or kind of tip or strategy could you give them about where they might start?

Katie Rossler [00:47:05]:
Yeah. And it’s great if we get to that awareness level where we’re like, okay, I’ve got to have to have some hard and uncomfortable questions and discussions, and I don’t know how to do it correctly. Quote in A way that’s going to be effective because we usually fight about this. And this is a big reason why I have, like, literally just a communication skill set program. Because this is what people most the time for couples. This is what they got to learn. We have to start with being clear. Just like the list for the women in Perimenopause who are, like, resentful and frustrated.

Katie Rossler [00:47:41]:
Right. What is really the core problem that we need to talk about? What are the stuff that we’ve been, you know, pushing under the rug? And what are the things that we’re scared of, how they’re going to respond when we say it? Because until we’re clear, it’s a bit like that again, like, go clean your room. Like, I gotta have a conversation with him about all this stuff. And whoa, that feels overwhelming. And then your brain’s like, oh, I have another task I need to do. Oh, I gotta make that phone call. All we’ll think of everything else but sit down and get very clear on what it is you need to talk about. And then go and seek out the tools of how to have that particular type of conversation.

Katie Rossler [00:48:21]:
And whether you come and find me with my podcast Relationship Reset, as you know, I love to give little homework at the end. There’s always little things. It’s ways to start practicing difficult conversations in a really easy way. So it’s not. Not deep, dark, you know, like, let’s bring everything to the surface. It’s like, let’s talk about this one little thing and practice how to talk about it. But if you do that, or you come join me in the Communication Reset skill school, like, you need to be able to find those tools to go, how do I speak? So my partner hears me a lot. Like the love language versus speak how I want to be spoken to.

Katie Rossler [00:48:56]:
It’s different temperament, different personalities, different cultural pieces. We can’t speak to our partner about the problems we’re facing with them in the way that we need to receive and process information. We have to factor them into the equation. And that’s often why we hit a wall with our partner, because we do it the way we would receive the information well. Or we go way too immediately in leadership mode. We need to talk about this, and this is what I think, and this is it. Because We’ve prepared our PowerPoint slides in our head. I’m going to defend this so you believe me and you know that I am right and lawyer mode will not solve the problem.

Katie Rossler [00:49:40]:
So get very clear and then see where are you lacking in your communication Skills in your relationship that needs to be worked on. And maybe where they’re lacking, though, it’s very easy to pick out theirs, what you need, and then come and ask for those resources, ask for that support.

Nicky Lowe [00:49:59]:
I think one of the things that I’ve learned in my journey of kind of showing up in my relationship in a way that we can have connection and we can have those difficult conversations, I found that there’s nothing more vulnerable than being in that intimate relationship. It’s like you’re opening up your heart and as open as you want to be. I know that I’ve tended to armor up because it’s like, well, if I’m going to go into this difficult relationship, this difficult conversation, I’m feeling really vulnerable. So I’ll go in with criticism or I’ll go in with. To armor myself up to feel less vulnerable. And the more I can lean into the vulnerability of like, I’m finding this hard right now, how about you? Without that judgment. And that’s when the connection happens. But like, it isn’t easy to get to that place.

Nicky Lowe [00:50:45]:
So I love that you’re teaching people the skills of how do we actually lean into those conversations when human nature will stop us kind of doing it in an effective way.

Katie Rossler [00:50:55]:
Definitely. And I think what you just shared, I just want to bring this point to the table because people don’t realize what you just just said was vulnerability makes me defensive and wall up. That means you don’t trust yourself to be strong enough to whatever they’re going to say or do. Trust yourself to be strong enough. If you cry or you get angry, it’s okay. You are strong and resilient as an individual. We, if our self confidence gets so like, oh, I’ve got to armor up and it’s like, this is not a battle. Nobody shooting anybody, I hope.

Katie Rossler [00:51:27]:
Right. Like, there’s nothing like that. That, that’s a different type of conversation. But like, these are emotions. We’re strong as women. We have so many emotions in a day, in a week, in a month. We can handle the emotions of someone who we love, who might be disappointed, hurt, scared, sad, anxious, angry. We can handle it.

Nicky Lowe [00:51:51]:
And I also think in there, you know, we talked about high achievers and high functioners that there is something around, well, if we’re having problems, therefore I’m failing or this relationship’s failing or this relationship isn’t right, and therefore we do armor up to not feel the shame of that. Whereas if you can go, no, this is normal, this is the growth in the relationship. I think it allows you to lean into that vulnerability because you’ve reframed it as a. Oh, all couples go through this or healthy couples go through it if they allow themselves. So I love the message that you’re sharing and you’ve already mentioned a couple of resources. I’m sure people are listening, going, where can I find out more about Katie, the resources you offer. Can you kind of pinpoint and I’ll put all the links in the show notes?

Katie Rossler [00:52:37]:
Yes, of course. So podcast is relationship reset. Most episodes around 12 to 15 minutes long, unless it’s in an interview like we do, where it goes a little bit longer but very practical tools. So literally every Wednesday you’re going home going, okay, honey, I listen to this. Or maybe you both listen to it. This is what we should do this week. Week you don’t even have to pay for therapy. You just come and listen to that.

Katie Rossler [00:52:59]:
The second is the communication reset for couples. So a six month program I do, you can enter in any time when you guys are ready and I’m constantly weekly there teaching you. So it’s just more about skill set. Sometimes we don’t want to go into the deep dark therapy stuff either. Like we’re like, or maybe our partner isn’t, but we want to treat it like a job and learn the skills. So that’s a space for that. And then if you want to work one to one with me, my website, katirustler.com, you can contact me on there and say, hey, we’re interested in going the deep dive, let’s do the work and I’ll let you know what my availability is at that time.

Nicky Lowe [00:53:37]:
Yeah, brilliant. Well, thank you, Katie for coming and sharing your wisdom and expertise with us. And I, I know it will resonate with so many people.

Katie Rossler [00:53:46]:
Thank you, Nikki. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Nicky Lowe [00:53:50]:
If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Wisdom for Working Mums, I’d love for you to share it on social media or with the amazing women in your life. I’d also love to connect with you. So head over to Luminate where you’ll find ways to stay in touch. And if this episode resonated with you, one of the best ways to support the show is by subscribing and leaving a review on itunes. Your review helps other women discover this resource, so together we can lift each other up as we rise. Thanks for listening. Until next time. Take care.