Nicky Lowe [00:00:07]:

Hi. I’m Nikki Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom For Working Moms podcast show, where I share insights and interviews that support women to combine their family, work, and life in a more successful and sustainable way. So welcome, Liz. I’m so excited to have you on the podcast because I’ve been following you in your work for a little while, and I love what you’re doing in the world.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:02:06]:

Thank you. So I’m so excited to be here, Nikki. Thank you so much for having me.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:11]:

So can you tell us a bit about you and about your organization, please, Investing

Elizabeth Willetts [00:02:17]:

It’s School and part time, all work from home jobs with, forward thinking and inclusive employers throughout the UK. I mean, I found it in my background’s recruitment, so I’ve been in recruitment since 2007. So I joined the year before, the financial crisis. I had one good year, and then and then Lehman Brothers, like, crashed.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:43]:

And and then, yeah, then

Elizabeth Willetts [00:02:44]:

it was obviously a bit rocky, but I stuck with it. So I genuinely love recruitment. So been in recruitment, yeah, like I said, since 2007. I worked for one of the largest recruitment agencies and then moved in house and recruited for one of the big all. And, like many people was made redundant during the height of the pandemic at the end of my 2nd maternity leave. I wanted to do the part time job because at the time, my children, they were 1 and 3, and I didn’t wanna work full time. I wanted I I’ve struggled to conceive my 1st child. It’s been a long time trying to conceive, and I ended up having IVF.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:03:20]:

So it was, you know, after all that time trying to conceive, I didn’t want then leave them for full time in an office and couldn’t find a part time job for the nominee. Every time a recruiter approached me And I asked, will they consider part time? They said no straight away or ghosted me. And, you know, I just got so like peed off and I could see what happened to so many of my friends where they had to exchange a job that they’ve worked really hard for. They’d often studied a long time for they were being paid well for, there’s something a lot lower, paid a lot lower skilled in exchange for that flex. And I, I saw it then I still see it now that I think the, the lack of flexible opportunities, particularly, you know, the senior, you know, mid to senior level is one of the contributory factors, Key contributory factors to the gender pay gap because it pushes a lot of women out of work or into lower paid, lower skilled roles, or they’re overlooked If they do manage to get, you know, a part time role, you know, I get messages from people all the time that, maybe have managed to secure that part time job, But to get a promotion, they’re told they need to to convert to full time. So and, yeah, and that’s why I founded it. I mean, I’d look back on my career, and, you know, I’ve recruited Probably about a 1000 people, if not more at that point. Not a single one had ever been part time.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:04:42]:

I just think, you know, there is a huge market of people looking for flexible and part time opportunities, and I felt they weren’t being served very well by traditional recruitment agencies. So That’s why I founded Investing Women. Like I said, it’s a platform. I think this is a bit of a recruitment agency, job wide hybrid, and we help people find part time work, and it’s been going just over 2 years now. So

Nicky Lowe [00:05:07]:

That’s amazing. And I’ve seen kind of some of those jobs on the job board, and they are amazing. You know, these are I have conversations yeah.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:05:15]:

I mean, I’m really good. But so I’m like, oh, god. I wish I’d known about that one. I didn’t You know, I do get tempted by a few of them.

Nicky Lowe [00:05:21]:

Absolutely. So I so do you work as kind of this intermediary? You’re going Out of finding the organizations that are supporting flexible working and are family friendly, and then kind of marrying those it with the with the women that might be interested in those type of roles?

Elizabeth Willetts [00:05:39]:

Yeah. That’s it, really. So, you know, if an organization can offer flexible or part time work, or they can consider that for some of their roles. Then they get in touch with me. I then advertise it on the, the job board candidates get in touch with me regularly. And I, you know, I then reach out, like I said, it’s a bit of a hybrid sign and reach out to relevant People when roles advertise that might work for them, might, you know, see their skills, their experience in their location, and then I encourage them to apply, so I think this is a bit of a hybrid and then obviously there’s various packages, you know, if an employer wants the full recruitment service they can have that as well. So Yeah, there’s various different packages that are available to employers, but yes, I’d urge anybody that’s looking for flexible part time work in the UK to check out the job board, which is investing in women or get in touch with me and, you know, new jobs are added daily. So if you go on and there isn’t something you’re interested in now, it doesn’t mean that your job, you know, you’re perfect.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:06:41]:

I won’t be added tomorrow. Love that. Thank you. And I get in touch and then, you know, at least you’re on my list and you’re on, you know, on my radar. And then, you know, it’s brilliant because like last month I had a candidate email me Who’s a regulatory lawyer at an asset management firm that was forcing people to go back into the office, which is happening a lot at the moment, and she couldn’t do it. She’d got, you know, young children. She had a flexible working arrangement, that had been agreed prior to COVID, and they were, you know, pulling back on that. And at the time I didn’t have anything for her, so I just sort of put her on my, one of my lists.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:07:15]:

And then literally on Thursday, her ideal job was added. And she’s applied and I’m like, I think you’re perfect. I think you, I’m feeling really confident about, but that’s not, you know, your job, your perfect job might just be a few weeks away. So,

Nicky Lowe [00:07:29]:

Yeah. And I’m seeing more and more jobs on your board. So I feels like this is really gaining momentum.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:07:35]:

It’s getting really busy. Yeah. It’s taken a couple years Get going. I mean, I can eat business. It’s not an overnight success, and, you know, I’ve worked really hard. I’m not getting the lights. I’ve definitely worked more hours Doing it in the irony, and you probably know this. I started this thing.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:07:50]:

I like work flexibly as well around my own kids. It was a bit of a selfish thing as I wasn’t completely self, but I was like, well, if I can do this, I can do it around the kids, beat them up. And then I’ve been into working more hours than I ever would have done. Yeah. It feels like it’s now starting to to bear fruit. And

Nicky Lowe [00:08:06]:

Yeah. I would like it to get in an airplane off the ground, isn’t it? The the energy and effort it takes to get the air, but once you can get it in the air, hopefully, for a while, you can kind of float through the skies and enjoy some of the hard work.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:08:20]:

I know we were recording this in June, but I’m hoping that I can float through and we’re coming up for some holidays. I’m hoping I can float

Nicky Lowe [00:08:26]:

through. Yeah. So you’ve already alluded to some of this, but in your experience, what are you seeing as some of the main challenges and barriers for women in the workplace?

Elizabeth Willetts [00:08:38]:

Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot, isn’t there? So, I mean, to be honest, it’s not just me. I mean, I think the world of work is changing for everybody. I mean, it’s quite interesting. I’ve got a couple of people that work for me and they’re not like moms. They young, they girls in their twenties that won’t flexible. What they don’t want to work in an office all time. I think they were I think, you know, students got conditioned to studying at home and not having to go in anywhere.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:09:04]:

And then it’s only quite hard So then getting that whole mentality that you have to go into an office. But I think the main challenges, particularly for moms are that Unfortunately, we still don’t have fuller quality at home. You know, women, I mean, there’s various different stats depending on when, when you look, but, you know, women on average, Depending on the stats, we either do 45 minutes more at home in terms of house alert, looking after children, etcetera, or depending on where Are you looking for those reports, but that is a lot more, extra responsibility that, women are taking on in the, in the home. There’s obviously the mental load. So, you know, it’s the birthday parties. It’s who’s buying the presents. What is it PE day today or not? Who’s packing the lunches. So There’s that.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:09:50]:

And I do think we need more quality at home for us to have more equality at work. So it isn’t all on employers. Yeah. So employers Don’t then, I suppose, appreciate all my allowances for how society is set up at the moment. And, you know, they’ve designed a workplace That was designed, by Henry Ford in the 1920s. You know, he was the one that introduced the 8 hour working day. You go to a place of work. It’s 8 hours.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:10:21]:

Everybody works the same 8 hours. And that was set up in a time when it was just generally 1 earner or, you know, it was, it was a man going out to work and the woman was at home and, you know, we know life’s changed how most women work. Most households need 2 incomes, but workplaces haven’t adapted. They’re still, You know, set up like they were in the 1920s. And this was like proof, you know, basically Mo had a phone even then. I think there was phones, but there wasn’t many people that even had a phone at home. So I think workplaces need to catch up with the world of work has completely changed. Yeah.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:10:59]:

And it’s difficult, like a 9 to 5, you’ve got a big commute on either side and then she’s open 8 to 6. It’s it’s hot. You can’t do it. And and then women are the ones that, you know, that are taking that on maybe because they are the lower typically women obviously earn lower than men, And that actually does happen as well just before the birth of their 1st child. So they are then sort of taking the responsibilities of maybe doing the pickups and the drop offs and therefore then they’re getting overlooked. They they shouldn’t be overlooked, but they’re getting overlooked at work. If they can’t stay late, if they can’t meet those clients in the evening, work, it was not set up for them.

Nicky Lowe [00:11:36]:

Yeah. And I I talk about it as the kind of paradigm where the ideal mother and the ideal worker just collide because you’re trying to Kind of let work like you don’t have children. And then mother like you don’t have your work. And that is just as we know, so brutal. And why women Come, you know, struggling to do full time work and that flexibility is so important.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:11:58]:

And then there’s, obviously, if you get a part time, it’s that part time penalty. It’s like messaged me yesterday. She can only get a promotion if she switches to full time. Wow. And that happens now is 2023. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:12:12]:

So interestingly, I know that you’re really excited and curious about the future of work. And I’d love to see what your views are, what you see happening over the next kind of 5 to 10 years with the future of work.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:12:26]:

I think it’s a really exciting time because, like I said, I think expectations of work have changed and that has changed since the pandemic. You know, we’re seeing that, resistance aren’t we from, you know, and it’s, I suppose it’s a conflict we see a lot with employers wanting people now, you know, not obviously every employer, but some employers are wanting people back into the office. If they, you know, if they’re paying a fortune on their office rent. If maybe they’ve got vested interests, they’re invested in real estate in some shape or form. So there is that we want you back in the office And then employers, a lot of employees, sorry, I thought like no, like working from home. So it’s that whole, you know, that whole different viewpoint and Who’s going to win that battle? You know, it’s interesting because obviously we may be coming up to a recession overnight, maybe coming up to a recession where employee Employees feel the pressure to return if companies start making mass redundancies. We will say, or will the labour market continue to remain tight? Which has done, and therefore will employers, you know, not want to lose their staffs, not want to rock the boat too much. So there’s that.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:13:37]:

And, you know, So that’s like the existing workers. I’ve got not obviously everybody can work from home, but you know, a lot of office workers can say those office workers, now we got used to working from home. They enjoy working from a lot of people enjoy working from home. They enjoy that flexibility. They enjoy being able to pick up the kids from school and they enjoy being able to Jane for Walking the Day, and also feel that they do more productive work at home. Yeah. And then obviously, like I said, we’ve got these students that studied, spent 5 years studying at home. You know, if they were, you know, pandemic started during a levels and they went to university and it’s quite hard then to then if you got used to like studying and work from home.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:14:20]:

And, you know, you work well working from home, you know, going into an office, but then obviously they, they also want to learn as well. So it’s, it’s difficult. It’s a whole, it’s a real mix of what’s happening. And then, and then also we’ve got AI now that’s just coming into that pot and when she’s obviously muddying the waters even more so there’s a it’s really hard to So you know exactly how work’s going to change. I think flexibility is here to stay because I think that those employers that I know from my experience that don’t offer any form of flex, struggle to hire, and struggle to attract candidates. Interesting. I read an article by the 1st HR director of LinkedIn, who now runs a consultancy in the US. And he said the first Question candidates ask is, can this job to be done remotely? And those jobs that can be done remotely are the most popular roles on my site by far.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:15:16]:

And it’s definitely not just moms that are applying for it. I mean, I’ve, I’ve just placed somebody who, is a young guy actually in his twenties and he just wants to travel. He wants to be able to work and travel the world at the same time. And I think that is that Gen z, they don’t want to necessarily talking to the people that work for me, they don’t want to be tied to the 9 to 5, you know, in an office like previous generations just thought was the norm. And then we’ve got AI as well. So it’s, It’s an interesting time.

Nicky Lowe [00:15:50]:

It is. And I it’s it’s just making me think a lot of the work that I do with organizations around leadership development is around As leaders, how do you navigate all this? You’ve got, you know, for the 1st time in it, in our history, 5 generations in the workplace, all with different needs, beliefs, expectations about work. You’ve now got the kind of hybrid working. Are we leaning into it? And if so, how do we get the benefits I’ve reduced the downsides of it. You know, AI. And it’s always like now more than ever, I use A term with a lot of the leaders that I work with around VUCA. And it’s a military term. And the the v is about volatility.

Nicky Lowe [00:16:28]:

The u is uncertainty. The c is complex It’s doing the a is ambiguity, and it’s like, how the hell do we navigate this? And as you say, an AI could just kind of blow everything out the water as well.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:16:39]:

We do need, I think there definitely needs to be more investment in managers. And I think that historically there hasn’t you People that have been promoted are the ones that have maybe been good at their day job. You know, maybe if you were sales, for example, if you’re a good salesperson, But that doesn’t always translate to being good manager. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:17:00]:

And I could talk about being accidental managers. You know? We’ve and it’s that’s that’s that can be a really, really difficult place to be. Because if you say you’ve been not been promoted because you’re necessarily showing management capability. You’ve been promoted because you’ve shown a capability in another area.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:17:17]:

Yeah. So I think, yeah, more important than ever to have good manage, you know, choose the right people and maybe celebrate different skills, empathy, that coaching, you know, maybe that visionary, being able to bring people along with the vision that is more important than perhaps, you know, the other skills that I’ve been rewarded in the past, you know, we get a lot of people that are promoted don’t we? Because they just allowed the demanding or they present to use them And actually in this new world world of work, that is probably the best way to sync your organization.

Nicky Lowe [00:17:54]:

Absolutely. So what advice would you give to somebody listening, a woman and, you know, a working mum about how to navigate this going

Elizabeth Willetts [00:18:04]:

forward. Well, in terms of flex, I mean, I think there’s, there’s so much, you know, since there’s a lot, You know, if I say give, I mean, the first thing is if you’re looking for work is obviously it’s really nice to see an advert that says part time, but not all roles will mention flexible working on their adverts. And I get this on roles added to my site. So I’ll go back and say, well, you’ve posted this role. My site is Flexible working. You process well, it doesn’t mention anything about flexible working, and they’ll say, oh no. Yeah. We can offer.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:18:34]:

We can do part time time. And it’s like, well, why don’t you want this? Then I’ll physically add manually added, but therefore my advice would be, if you see a job, you like the look of that you think works really well based upon your skills and experience We apply whether it mentions full time, part time or whatever, because, you know, chances are they may be able to make it flexible. It has been a really tight labor market the past couple of years. There has been a shortage of candidates. Employees have had to be more flexible than they’ve ever been, You know, in their lifetimes, to attract people. So now is the best time I believe, you know, in the history of the workplace to get those flexible roles.

Nicky Lowe [00:19:16]:

I love that. So what do you, what are your hopes for investing in women for the future. What what are your plans or your hopes?

Elizabeth Willetts [00:19:25]:

Yeah. So we my time this is recorded, we’re hopefully launching a flex, flexible working consultants, not just flexible working, a consultancy that helps, companies learn how to attract and retain and promote women in the workplace. Who knows that? What you’re excited about. So that’s coming soon. And yeah, it’s just going to be because I do Facebook LinkedIn lives with experts on a weekly basis. So I’ve actually learned a lot from loads of different people, a bit like yourself, Nikki. I’ve got so many brilliant ideas about All the different ways, you know, workplaces can support. So it’s actually just bringing everything together and, you know, imparting that knowledge to those organisations And hopefully making a real difference because eventually, you know, we’d love to see 5050 women in the workplace.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:20:13]:

I mean, we get a lot, you know, A lot of things are like, well, we want 30% women in off 25% of women that have people on the board is female by 2030. I don’t think that’s ambitious enough. I think we need, we want to be 50, 50. Don’t we want to be 50, 50 or all levels of the organization? Yeah. So I think that’s, that’s the ambition the, and that there is, it’s not just, you know, role minimum wage roles that are Flexible are part time. We want to see the option to be able to work flexibly at all levels of businesses.

Nicky Lowe [00:20:49]:

Brilliant. So What’s I always say to my guests, what’s, like, 1 message or 1 piece of advice that you would want to leave somebody listening to this interview With around investing in women and promoting gender equality, maybe it’s somebody that’s applying for jobs or maybe somebody it’s somebody that’s an employer. Yeah.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:21:11]:

Oh, gosh. What one of my advice? Like, I think at home, don’t think it all has to fall to you because I think that is something that perhaps We see a lot of, you know, make sure your partner is a partner and isn’t just helping you. And I think that’s, that’s something that I, you know, it definitely needs to be a partnership because it’s very hard to progress in your career. If you are still picking up 90% of things at home to make sure you have a partner, not, not an assistant. I think that’s a personal thing, really. And, And then, yeah, in the organizations don’t discount somebody because they work flexibly because they work part time I’ve launched my business. It’s, you know, it’s a growing business. I’ve launched it flexibly around my kids.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:22:03]:

You know, I have done the pickups, which I wanted to do, I have been around for them. I feel like, you know, I’ve worked flexibly. I’m not, I’m not going to deny that it’s not difficult to set much business. I have worked late nights after they’ve gone to bed, but I have worked a non traditional 9 to 5 and managed to do something I feel really proud of. I think I’ve produced my best work being able to work flexibly around my schedule

Nicky Lowe [00:22:29]:

For both individuals and organisations, great piece of advice there So I know people are gonna wanna find out more about you and your work. So where would you point them towards? Where where can they find out more about you?

Elizabeth Willetts [00:22:40]:

Yeah. So I’m on LinkedIn a lot, I’m Elizabeth Willett on LinkedIn. So please do send me a connection request. We’ve also got the company page there as well investing in women. You can check out our drop board on our website investing in women dotco.uk. We’re on Instagram investing in women careers, and we’ve also got a brilliant Facebook group as well called Work It Like a Monsoon.

Nicky Lowe [00:23:00]:

Brilliant. Thank you. And I’m going to put all of those links in the show notes so people can can access them really easily. And it just leads me to say this. You’re doing in the world because I know it’s making such a difference to the women that you’re placing in their jobs But also you’re really moving the dial Elle, in terms of the whole conversation and people’s appetite for flexible working and supporting more women in the workplace. Aw.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:23:25]:

Thank you so much.

Nicky Lowe [00:23:27]:

It’s a pleasure speaking to you.

Elizabeth Willetts [00:23:29]:

You too. Thank you.

Nicky Lowe [00:23:32]:

If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Wisdom For Working Moms, please share it on social media and with your friends and family. I’d love to connect with you too. So if you head over to wisdom for working moms.co.uk, you’ll find a link on how to do this. And if you love the show and really want to support it, please go to iTunes, write a review, and subscribe. You’ll be helping another working mum find this resource too. Thanks so much for listening.