Nicky Lowe [00:00:06]:
Hi. It’s Nicky Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom for Working Moms podcast show. I’m your host. And for nearly two decades now, I’ve been an executive coach and leadership development consultant. And on this show, I share evidence based insights from my coaching, leadership, and psychological expertise and inspiring interviews that help women like you to combine your work, life, and motherhood in a more successful and sustainable way. Join me and my special guests as we delve into leadership and lifestyle topics for women, empowering you to thrive one conversation at a time. I’m so happy that you’re here and let’s go on with today’s episode. Welcome to the Wisdom for Working Moms podcast show.

Nicky Lowe [00:00:49]:
It’s great to have you here. I’m your host, Nikki Lo. And today we’re diving into a topic that I believe has the power to transform how we show up in every aspect of our lives, and that is our emotional intelligence. But the way that I’m gonna explore it today is not the typical way that you might think about it, but it’s through the lens of something called the Enneagram. Now the Enneagram is a powerful personality framework, is probably the best way to describe it, that helps us uncover the deep rooted patterns driving our thoughts, our emotions, and our behaviors. And it’s not just about identifying a type. It’s really a tool for profound self awareness and growth. And I think this episode, you’re gonna love where we go with it because there’s no one better to guide us through this than Scott Allender.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:45]:
And he’s the author of the Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence. And Scott is an expert in global leadership and organizational development. He’s worked for some of the world’s best known companies, and he’s also a professionally certified Enneagram teacher. And he also is, certified in Myers Briggs and Hogan, and he’s a certified emotional intelligence coach. He’s also the cohost of the really popular Evolving Leader podcast, which if you’ve not listened to, would highly recommend Scott and John’s podcast is really powerful. And it’s a show that really explores the context of how we create deeper, more accountable and more human leadership to confront some of the world’s biggest challenges. And Scott regularly teaches Enneagram workshops and conducts typing interviews and emotionally intelligent assessments for individuals and teams who seek to become more radically self aware of the impact they have on the world. And in 2020, Scott created an Enneagram workplace tool called the ENEA Flip.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:49]:
And he talks about it in this episode to equip organisations to put the Enneagram insights into practice. And in this conversation, Scott shares really insights into the Enneagram tool and how understanding your Enneagram type can unlock new levels of self awareness, improve your relationships and help you develop the emotional intelligence needed to thrive in work and life. And during this conversation, I share insights into my Enneagram type, because I was lucky enough to have my Enneagram profile done by Scott and the, literally the profound impact that’s had on me and my self awareness. We really kind of pull back the curtain and, and explore that. So if you’ve ever wondered why you react the way you do, why certain patterns keep showing up in your relationships, or how you can deepen your self awareness to thrive, this episode is for you. I won’t keep you any longer. Let’s dive in and welcome Scott. So welcome, Scott.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:53]:
Thank you for joining me on the podcast. It’s great to have you here.

Scott Allender [00:03:56]:
I’m delighted to be here. Thanks for having me.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:59]:
So I’ve been lucky enough to be a guest on your podcast, so it feels a real honor to be hosting you on mine this time and to also to be diving into the work that you do around the Enneagram because, again, I’ve been lucky enough to be on the receiving end of you debriefing mine, and I know we’re gonna dive into that today. So this feels like it’s gonna be a really powerful conversation.

Scott Allender [00:04:21]:
It’s gonna be fun.

Nicky Lowe [00:04:23]:
So for those that don’t know you, can you share a little bit about who you are and how you came to do this work? And I particularly love the start of the chapter in your book because it’s such a compelling story that really brings us to the power of the work you do.

Scott Allender [00:04:40]:
Sure. Yeah. So I’m a development guy. I’m, I’ve been fascinated by the mysteries of the human personality my whole life and the sort of the question of why do we do the things that we don’t want to do? Why do we not do the things that we do want to do? Why do, some leaders, who go through a leadership development program become incredibly effective while other leaders don’t? Why do some teams work really well together and some don’t, even though they seem to be made up of generally the same kind of backgrounds and personalities and things. So I’ve devoted my much of my career to kind of helping leaders and teams make better sense of the challenges they face and to do some self awareness work. And so in that journey, I’ve procured various certifications. I’ve used various tools to try to have in my tool belt. So Myers Briggs and Hogan and became a certified emotional intelligence coach.

Scott Allender [00:05:36]:
And, I knew about the Enneagram. This goes back a decade or so, more more than that. And I I read a couple books, and I kinda thought I knew my type. And it felt kind of complex, and I couldn’t immediately see the application in the work that I did. I was like, how am I gonna bring this to people? So I kinda put it on the back burner a little bit. And then the story you’re referencing in the beginning of the book is that I was actually on a road trip, and I was doing some of this work. I was working with teams and leaders and felt like I was in a really good mood and really proud of the work that we’ve done that day. And I my work was done, and I was actually gonna drive and and go see some old friends.

Scott Allender [00:06:16]:
And I was I got on the freeway and what you guys call it over there interstate motorway. I got on the motorway one of those and I’m driving like 70 miles an hour and suddenly I start losing like my breath a little bit and I feel like my heart is beating really strangely, and it almost feels very tight in my chest. And I’ve got tingling coming down over my whole body. And this is not a feeling you wanna be having while you’re driving very, very quickly. And so I start make I’ve never experienced anything like this. I start making my way off to the exit and I start dialing emergency services for myself and I pull into the first parking lot that I find and I get out of the car and start pacing. As I’m pacing, I start kind of finding my breath again and my heart starts to feel a little bit more normal and then of course I hear the sirens coming for me and it’s in the middle of the day and I’m feeling foolish and embarrassed and I don’t want this level of attention but now kind of started the ball rolling anyway. They they I still don’t know what it is, and they do some roadside tests on the EKGs and things, and they they say everything’s turning out okay, but I should come to the hospital.

Scott Allender [00:07:23]:
And I decline because I’m, you know, I’m in another part of the country, and I’ve got a rental car. I’ve got my luggage, and I’m not gonna go to the hospital. Right? And I already kinda knew at that moment that this probably wasn’t a heart issue. Well, actually, it kinda turned out to be something of a heart issue, but not a physical heart issue, more of an emotional heart issue. And feeling quite well, feeling a lot of things. Right? Sort of foolish and embarrassed just like and just really concerned. What has this what is this thing? Why has this happened? Long story medium length. I eventually came to terms and understood that this had been my first ever anxiety attack out of nowhere.

Scott Allender [00:08:10]:
And that set me on a path to sort of questionable why because I didn’t feel consciously anxious. I was feeling quite, good. You know, at least I thought I was, sort of just driving forward doing my work, you know, kind of one thing to the next, always on the schedule, always moving, always delivering, feeling like my work was meaningful, all those things. And not knowing the why, I remembered that the Enneagram talked a bit about these things, these unconscious motivations, and these sort of conditioned responses that get ingrained this in us as young people. And these sort of the layers and layers of complexity of of the things that we believe and the messages we internalized and how this forms often a very unconscious experience of life. And so I’ve said, well, I need to go dive in. So I went on head first, Didn’t care about the application. I was on a journey for myself.

Scott Allender [00:09:10]:
What what is this thing? Why has this happened? And so, yeah, that that sent me to drink the Kool Aid on the Enneagram, and I went on a, like, ten year journey of exploration. Eventually, did go to a sort of, two year certification program. But, again, that was all for me and my benefit and and the sort of, value I was finding in the journey.

Nicky Lowe [00:09:33]:
Love. Such a powerful story. And I think probably a story that even though many listening may have not had that exact experience of driving along the freeway and having kind of an anxiety panic attack, but at some level knowing that we’re not fully connected to our experience. And so many executives and I find the more successful people are, often they’ve learnt responses to deal with the level of pressure and and responsibility that they’re carrying, but many of us can kind of live a little way away from that emotional experience because we found a way to kind of deal. And once we can start to kind of connect to that, the power of it. And so that’s what I wanted us to kinda get into in in this conversation. So what did you discover on that journey about yourself that was so informative for you and the work that you now do?

Scott Allender [00:10:37]:
Yeah. So I’m we haven’t kind of done an overview of the nine types, but we can we can get to that if you’d like. And in the meantime, I’ll just hone in on on my type. So I there’s the nine sort of core archetypes of the Enneagram system. Like I said, we can talk about those in a moment. Do it with a stop tour. I identify as a type three. And as a type three, we’re motivated to achieve and to be successful and avoid failure at all costs.

Scott Allender [00:11:07]:
And the sort of fear that the three unconsciously carries, mostly unconsciously, is that separate from what I achieve, I have no real worth. And so everything becomes about delivering and achieving. And in the process, you sort of deny your own identity and emotions and what you really want because you’re externally focused on doing the things that will get you the most admiration and applause. And that sounds very vain, and it can be. But really, when you get into the sort of makeup of that type, you’re seeing that there’s this lost sort of, like, sense of identity separate from the mirroring back I received from other people, like, separate from the validation I get from whether or not you think the work I did was great or whether or not you think that I know the right people or I swim in the right circles or I do all these things the right way, whatever that right looks like in the context of our social environment. I lose I’ve lost my sense of identity. So threes, threes I I know a lot of threes that wake up in worse situations than I did. Right? So my here I am this emotional intelligence coach.

Scott Allender [00:12:12]:
Right? So I have this very heady knowledge of emotions, and I could really work with people and help them make, you know, better regulate and and lead their teams better. But I was living at a distance from my own emotional experience, and that journey kind of really frighteningly is that a word frighteningly? I I sort of was sort of astonished by how far I was from my own true emotional compass. Right? So if you ask me to sort of name what I was feeling on a granular level, I would struggle to do it. Right? I could I could tell you what you were feeling probably with more precision. Just having walked in the room and observed you, then I could tell you what I was actually feeling authentically. So part of learning the system and learning my type is to kinda learn where I got stuck there. Right? So the nine types, and there’s a different story and a different sort of message that sits behind each of those archetypes. The Enneagram doesn’t sort of kinda lock you into that box on one of those types.

Scott Allender [00:13:12]:
It kinda shows you where you’ve gotten stuck. Right? We’re meant to contain all nine types, but we identify with the type because in our story, that’s how we were gonna get our needs met, find love, get security, navigate the complexity of our family system, all of those things. And I I’ve done a lot of sort of work in therapy and with coaches to kind of uncover and get back to kinda like when did I really internalize those messages and when did that become my frame for life? How did that frame serve me really well? Right? And then how is that frame hurting me now?

Nicky Lowe [00:13:45]:
And so would you say that you’re more connected to your emotions now, or is that something you have to be far more intentional about doing?

Scott Allender [00:13:52]:
I would say it’s I would say both. Alright. I I feel that it’s much, much, easier now for me to name my emotions, but I have to be very intentional all the time because that default programming, that sort of living on on automatic pilot is always gonna be focused on others first at the expense of my own, like, true sense of what’s happening internally. So I make it a practice. So I’ve got a feelings wheel that I pull up and I sort of name my emotions. Like, what am I feeling right now? I make feeling check ins with my team a priority. Right? So, you know, we make it a a part of our recurring meetings to sort of do these simple check ins just as a practice for them and for me to just name our emotions and things. So, yeah, it’s it’s it’s easier, but it’s it’s gonna be a lifelong discipline.

Nicky Lowe [00:14:44]:
And I’m sitting here nodding along for those that can’t see the visual because, and we’ll come on to this. You recently did my Enneagram type and blew my mind because I’m also a three, and I can relate so deeply to what you’re saying, in so many ways. And I also love that on your podcast, you start with the question of how are you feeling today. So I can see how you’ve, like, brought that into to everything that you do. But I’m imagining people listening who may not have come across the Enneagram, and you’ve already whet their appetite. So would you mind sharing for those that have not come across it? What is the Enneagram? Where did it come from? And give that kind of high level overview of it.

Scott Allender [00:15:25]:
Yeah. So it’s got, deep origin stories in sort of philosophy and psychology, and even some spiritual traditions. But the modern Enneagram is basically a map that was, developed and refined by psychologists noticing these sort of archetypical patterns of what motivates people. Right? So there’s sort of nine sort of archetypes, their core motivations, and how they relate to one another and the world around them. Right? And so the basis of it so there’s nine core types, but it’s easiest to understand it as sort of three sets of three. So we we start by looking at these sort of three intelligences. So there’s the body intelligence, which is all about gut sensing, people who, are very tactile, people very action oriented. These types have a sort of central, sort of internal navigation about, what’s right, what’s wrong, what’s fair, what’s unjust in the world.

Scott Allender [00:16:26]:
They’re more action oriented than other people, and that’s that encompasses types eight, nine, and one. So we call those the body types. So they also, of course, use the other intelligences, which I’ll talk about in a moment, but they predominantly experience life through the gut, through instinct, through action, through doing, through that kind of thing. Then you’ve got the next intelligence, which is the emotion. That’s the heart based types. Those are types twos, three, and four. And these types, when they show up to life, their first inclination is to feel something. They wanna connect with people.

Scott Allender [00:16:59]:
They’re more image conscious, because they want deep connection. There’s a sort of underlying sadness in this group about, wanting to be liked, wanted, loved, and needed just for their authentic selves, but somewhere inside them believing they never really could be. So they craft images to try to please other people or try to perform or be unique or special in some way. And so all three of those types deal with that in a different way, but that’s their sort of common ground. And then there’s the next group, which is types five, six, and sevens, and we call these the head types, and they are more cerebral than other types. They show up to life in their first inclination is to plan something. They try to understand life through thinking and logic and ideas and story and rationale. They experience a shared sort of undercurrent of fear about anything that they don’t feel certain about.

Scott Allender [00:17:54]:
So much of their mental entanglements is always about trying to create a level of certainty about things. And, so you have eight, nine, and one in the body type. You have two, three, and four in the heart types. You got five, six, and sevens in the head types. And that’s the origin of the Enneagram is sort of the way that we overuse our preferred intelligence at the expense of anything else. So part of the work that Enneagram offers is where do you start? Alright. Are you a heart type? Are you a head type? Are you body type? And how are you then overusing that? Because when we overuse that preferred intelligence at the expense of accessing the others, we actually end up becoming less skilled at it. So go back to you and I.

Scott Allender [00:18:36]:
We’re three. We’re at the center of the heart type, which means we’re actually the most feeling type on the Enneagram. But because we carry that story, that performance and achievement and success is the only thing that’s important because we fear that without it, we have no real work. We actually are using emotions to read the room understand what other people expect of us others understand subtly the different climate and clothing and vibe and of any room and then subtly a shift and adapt to that all at the expense of actually using our own emotional intelligence in the way of understanding what we feel. Right? And you can go through any of the sort of centers and look at the way that they overusing that center, you’re actually misusing it. And so part of the work that’s been so profound for me and for others that I do this work with is just to learn how do I how do I get better access to my body? How do I pay more attention to my physical sensations? How do I improve my Intraceptive Sensitivity? Right? How do I access my emotions and what they’re really telling me? Why do I have these big emotions? What are they communicating to me about what I need or a need that’s not being met? My thinking center. What are the stories I’m actually holding? Are these stories actually true or are they conditioned beliefs and frames that I want to be true? And only, you know, the head types, they get much better at using their thinking when they learn to not be so dismissive of emotions and instinct. And the body types get better at action in the world when they take the time to slow down and actually get into their cognitive processes, pay attention to their emotions.

Scott Allender [00:20:07]:
And the emotional types get all better at their emotional intelligence when they actually recognize that my emotions are often the, interplay of what’s happening in my brain and my body and they’re kind of the alarm system about any disconnect there. So that’s the the sort of the sort of sectioning of it in terms of understanding the basics of the Enneagram at an intelligence center level. And then if you want, we could go around and I could just give you, like, an overview of the nine core motivations of each.

Nicky Lowe [00:20:36]:
I think that would be really powerful because as you were talking, Scott, you know, we’ve had this conversation before, but I came across the Enneagram nearly twenty years ago when I first became a coach. And I was so captivated by it because there is so many layers. And I know that we’re only gonna scratch the surface in this conversation today about the layers that this tool can uncover and having done many other personality profiling tools and thinking that this was a personality profiling. And I think it it does a complete disservice to put it under that banner. But I stepped away from it when I kind of did more work in corporate world because it hadn’t got the robust ness or I thought it hadn’t got the robustness that an MBTI or, you know, insights or whatever. But now in comparison, it it it’s kind of night and day when you’re when you’re talking about the conversations that come out of those tools. And I think all of these tools can be useful in their own way and right context, but there’s something about the Enneagram that just feels more expansive. Because as you say, it’s not about we’re gonna put you in this box.

Nicky Lowe [00:21:49]:
Like, you are this. It’s like, oh, but this is how you show up in the world, but what else has been disowned or disallowed or whatever the story might be? And, actually, as you say, when you start to look at these core motivations, you can start to see where that may have happened. And that’s why I was blown away when you did my profile because I was like, yes. I’m an I’m a qualified emotional intelligence practitioner. I’ve been doing this work on myself for, you know, twenty five years, and yet there was still so much that I wasn’t aware of. And that’s kind of the beauty in power in this.

Scott Allender [00:22:24]:
Yeah. And thank you for for explaining it the way you just did because I think that’s spot on. And and I agree, and I use other tools because they do have their place. But as you’re saying, this isn’t about gathering more adjectives and descriptions for your personality type. Right? This is an invitation and to go much deeper. This is actually an invitation to go you know, we have this we have an awareness crisis, really. Right? We’ve been talking about emotional intelligence publicly and progressively since the early nineties. And the cornerstone of which, of course, is this thing called self awareness.

Scott Allender [00:23:01]:
And if you look at the data, it’s abysmal. Like, for all that we know about emotional intelligence and how, like, 75% or more of your success and well-being will be directly attributed to measures of emotional intelligence, which, of course, includes self awareness, we’re not getting any more aware. And I think it’s because we keep trying to make adjustments to the part of the iceberg that sticks above the waterline. Right? The part that everybody sees. And so I might say, hey, Nikki. Like, I’m your I’m your emotional intelligence coach. I’m your you know, we’re gonna do some work. And I show you something you already know about yourself, and I talk about the way that it’s impacting people.

Scott Allender [00:23:40]:
And I tell you where to turn something up and turn something down. And with sheer white knuckle determination, you say, okay, Scott. I’m gonna I’m gonna be less abrasive in that meeting, or I’m gonna be more contributing more contributing to this meeting. But meanwhile, there’s the biggest part of the iceberg sits well below the line of consciousness. Right? I don’t see it, and opting you don’t see it. And so you’re not even sure why so much so much of what we’re you know, let’s say we did a three sixty report and I’m showing you results and you’re like, okay. I’ll change that. I’ll work on that.

Scott Allender [00:24:17]:
But you don’t yet know why you do it. So what makes the Enneagram so powerful, it doesn’t tell you what you do. It tells you why you do what you do. And only when we understand the why, and kind of going back to the earlier conversation around the sort of three centers of intelligence, and therefore can make more contact consciously with our head, hearts, and bodies, do we have the hope to achieve sustainable change in the areas that we need to because we are now more integrated and connected and more conscious of why we do what we do. Right? So the nine core types, and I’m just as you said, this is gonna be a 30,000 foot view, but we just we’ll start with the body types, eights, nines, and ones. So again, sort of central issue with unconscious anger, and that anger is really more around matters of injustice and not what’s not fair and and things in the world that aren’t correct according to their sort of gut instinct. And then the way aids respond to that is by, you know, needing to be strong and powerful and in control and avoid being vulnerable or controlled by others. So, they always wanna power up and take control or at least evaluate who has the power in the room and are they using that power appropriately.

Scott Allender [00:25:35]:
If they’re not, then they might need to actually or energetically sort of take over for them because, if I use my sort of anger that’s underneath there with this intensity and I become bigger than I I am and I sort of I I guard against any threats and I can protect myself and I can protect other people. Nines, their their response to all of this is to sort of be motivated to be at peace internally and externally. And so they constantly are avoiding anything that would have them feeling disconnected from other people or which means avoiding conflict at all costs. So they’re really good at understanding the different, experiences of all the other eight types, but really not very good at understanding their own experience because they’re they’re differential, and they kind of merge with other people’s ideas, wants, and desires as a way to keep the peace and keep the harmony. Because if anything rose up to to a level of conflict, that might cut me off from other people, and I don’t want that. And ones, which is the last in our grouping of body types, they’re motivated by needing to be good and to be and to improve things and to perfect things. And they avoid being bad, morally corrupt in any kind of way, and they really don’t like it when a mistake gets made, especially if they’re the last one to know the mistake got made. So these are, again, 30,000 foot views of these sort of three types that sit within the body intelligence.

Scott Allender [00:27:03]:
And usually in the workshop, I would spend forty minutes on each of these types potentially, you know, up to that much because you can really say a lot. But they’re all kind of orienting themselves through the gut, through the body, and at a high level, that’s kind of what they’re doing. And that’s the differences between them. So moving to the heart type, so again heart types being relational motivated, they’re all dealing with a sort of undercurrent of semi conscious sadness. And some teachers teach shame, which I think can can also be an experience. And now they’re trying to have strategies to mitigate that. And so twos, the way they’re trying to mitigate that experience is by going out towards others motivated to be loved, wanted, and needed. And so they look for people to help and to support in any way that they can because if they get appreciation mirrored back to them, then it speaks to this, need they have and this desire they have to want to really be loved, wanted, and needed, which we all have, but it’s more of a feature issue.

Scott Allender [00:28:04]:
And so they’re constantly avoiding being dismissed or rejected in any way. And then threes, us, right at the center of the heart type, I’ve talked about them a lot, so I’ll go quickly, That motivated by a need to feel valued and worthy, and so they avoid failure at all costs. They avoid, being worthless, not achieving their potential. Fours, the last in our heart type grouping, they, are motivated to be deeply understood. And so they actually peer into people’s lives with this sort of perspective that I’ll never fit into that. I’m kind of on the outside. I don’t belong. And so instead of trying to belong, they actually settle for wanting to be more unique and more special and for you to validate that in them so they can be really, really creative and and help us all see the depths of things.

Scott Allender [00:28:56]:
And they’re really, really, they’re really, beautiful in the way that they sort of go beyond any kind of surface level understanding of life. And so a lot of artists and things can be forced, and they avoid being inauthentic at all costs. And then finally, back to our head types five, six, and seven, again, they’re dealing with this undercurrent of fear, and that fear is primarily around anything that they can’t feel certain about. So they all have their own strategies for trying to be more certain. So five is trying to procure all sorts of knowledge and information, understand things. They’re motivated to be competent and self sufficient, and they avoid at all costs being depleted or surprised or overwhelmed. So they’re constantly guarding their sort of resources through sort of mental, protections. And so, they really wanna understand how everything works.

Scott Allender [00:29:47]:
The whoever said knowledge is power was likely a five. Right? That’s how fives are gonna compensate for that undercurrent of fear. Sixes, on the other hand, right at the center of the fear triad, are more, contrarian and challenging and questioning things to sort of surface and identify any potential risks. They’re motivated to be safe and secure, and they avoid and fear being without support or safety. And so they challenge ideas. They, they’re the ones that poke holes in everybody’s ideas because not because they actually think that they might go wrong, but because they wanna make sure that anything that could go wrong has actually been brought to the conversation and evaluated. And then sevens, they don’t look like they’re in the fear triad at all because they tend to be more exuberant, and they’re very, great, you know, very out there and they plan what they do is they’re they’re motivated to be stimulated and without limitations and, always on to the next thing. And they’re so they’re trying to avoid being trapped in pain because a seven, unconsciously mostly fears that if pain and sadness ever caught up to them, it would never leave them and they’d be entrapped in pain forever and ever.

Scott Allender [00:31:02]:
So they’re constantly on the move constantly on to the next thing. So there’s your sort of three hour workshop condensed to however many minutes that was, but hopefully that was somewhat helpful.

Nicky Lowe [00:31:15]:
It’s incredibly helpful. And I think to think about those, as you said, there’s the three types. They fit in the the kind of heads, hearts, and body or guts, and that each of those has this underlying kind of emotion that sits in their their kind of triad. And as you say, that’s only scratching the surface, but I’m imagining as you’ve said that people are starting to either recognize themselves or think they recognize themselves and maybe recognize others. So as you were talking, I could recognize traits of really good friends of mine or colleagues of mine. And I think what this does is just open the conversation to a different level of awareness about what drives us, because as you’ve said, some of those emotions are completely unconscious. They’re kind of beneath the the waterline of that iceberg. And I thought that was a really beautiful kind of metaphor about actually where is it that we’re going to do that exploration and and to raise our level of self awareness.

Nicky Lowe [00:32:17]:
And I think you’re absolutely right that I’m seeing self awareness go backwards. Unfortunately, both, you know, I think in ourselves because we get so distracted in our modern lives that we’re not necessarily sitting fully present with our experience. And as a three, I know I struggle with that anyway, but, you know, just with our daily lives of being fully present. But you then add on. I I’ve just been doing some work with, a group of graduates for kind of a large well known organization. And just when we’re doing development plans, like, their level of self awareness about what their strengths are in their development areas, yes, they’re starting their career be so they have less self awareness, but I’m like, actually, if I compare to working with graduates ten years ago, that feels like there’s less level of awareness. So

Scott Allender [00:33:13]:
I think, yeah, well, I think so many thoughts have come to mind on that. But but one of the things that I keep coming back to is that for all that’s been written about it, for all the classes, for all the papers, for all the research that validates no emotional intelligence. Right? You need it. We actually haven’t even begun to create space for the actual practice of developing it. Right? We’ve turned it into a completely heady understanding of emotions. Right? Like, it’s the very it’s like we’re using the head center to describe the need for emotional intelligence. And what really what we’re saying, especially in organizational life, is I just want you to be regulated. Right? Nikki, like, I’m all about bringing emotional intelligence in if it’ll make sure that you don’t cause me too many problems.

Scott Allender [00:33:59]:
Right? Like, that’s what I’m after. But we skip over the starting point, which is, well, emotions aren’t really rational, are they? And to understand your emotions, you actually have to have space to feel them. And and I know in organizational life, there’s, you know, you’re there to to create commercial value for whatever industry you’re in, and it’s not a therapy group. But we’ve tried to bring it into the ecosystem without allowing for that true experience of emotion, true acknowledgment if you’re not feeling well. Usually, when, you know, we go back to the earlier comment about asking people how they’re feeling. Usually, in organizational life, when you do that, I say, how are you feeling? What do you say?

Nicky Lowe [00:34:41]:
Yeah. Great. Fine.

Scott Allender [00:34:42]:
Good. Yeah. Fine. Man, tired. Maybe maybe you say tired. That might be but you don’t actually say, well, I feel a lot of fear right now because my teenage daughter is going through a really difficult time, and I’m not sure how to get through to her. And I’m finding it really distracting, and it’s taken a lot of my mental and emotional energy, and I feel afraid. Could you imagine if we could say that? And when you did say that, then you actually maybe just acknowledging it.

Scott Allender [00:35:08]:
A, you create this system of trust and support and relational equity with your team, and they maybe actually then try to pick up some of the weight you’re carrying in in the room. But also you’re able to then probably put your prefrontal cortex back online because you’ve actually been able to connect to and express this difficult emotion that would otherwise be distracting you. And if you’re not really conscious of having it, now you’re sitting in a meeting. You’re not really aware that you’re carrying this fear. You’re just in a bad mood. You think every idea that’s been presented is dumb. How it’ll never work. Right? You’re cynical.

Scott Allender [00:35:44]:
Like or whatever might happen. Right? But just by having the space to say and acknowledge and feel what you’re feeling, that that that’s a different level of organization that would create that kind of safety for that kind of emotional intelligence to really happen?

Nicky Lowe [00:36:01]:
I just found myself kind of yeah. My eyes are kinda starting to prickle as if, like, you’ve just touched something that’s making me want to cry. And I’m not sure exactly what it is, Scott, but there’s something incredibly powerful in that when you just kind of shared about that example of saying, and I’m really worried about my my teenage daughter. And there’s a real I don’t know if you’re getting it in The US at the moment, but there’s a massive kind of what’s in our cultural, in our cultural narrative at the moment. There’s a there’s a program that’s just been, released on Netflix in The UK, and it’s called Adolescence. And it’s all, about a young teenage boy who ends up stabbing, his school friend. And it’s been powerfully written by a very well known actor in The UK after there were a number of incidents that happened in The UK around this. And it’s told from the perspective of what is going on in our society that would lead a teenage boy to do that.

Nicky Lowe [00:37:09]:
And it’s addressing a load of the stuff about toxic masculinity, about Andrew Tate, but it’s done in a really subtle way. And it’s the the story isn’t a who’s done it, like most of these police crimes are. It’s a how has that happened. And it’s not pointing the finger at any one thing, but talking about culturally about how it’s happened. And so what’s going on in our narrative at the moment in the press and in the media and in social media is everybody kind of going it’s making us look as parents about that. Could we could be the parent of that child very, very easily. And as you were saying, I think it prickled because I was like, oh, yeah. I am actually worried about my my 12 year old son.

Nicky Lowe [00:37:53]:
And I think a number of parents, but how much are we bringing that into our kind of just our awareness and then the conversations we’re having with each other?

Scott Allender [00:38:02]:
Yeah. And I would say not very often. And I would say as life moves more quickly and things change more rapidly, it’s gonna bring up more, emotions. And yet the irony is that we get busier and we make less space for feeling them and processing them.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:21]:
Yeah.

Scott Allender [00:38:21]:
So the demands are greater, and we have less capacity and less permission that we don’t give ourselves at least to have this honest experience.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:30]:
And that leads me on to kind of share the impact the the debrief that you generously gave me on on my Enneagram has had on me because it kind of blew my mind. And and I don’t say that lightly because, as I say, I’ve done a lot of development over the years, and I would like to think I’m pretty self aware. And it’s interesting because the story that I’ve told myself for a number of years is that I’m an extroverted thinker, so I do my best thinking when I’m with others. But I’ve always described that I’m an introverted feeler in that, actually, if you ask me how I’m feeling, I need to go away and think and reflect on it myself before I can come back and have a conversation. And that felt very logical, very true to me. And then we did my Enneagram. And I was like, oh, wow. There’s a whole level that sits behind this that I had kinda painted over with that story.

Nicky Lowe [00:39:28]:
So just like you described, I would say that I’m very in tune with other people’s emotions. So I’d kinda oh, yeah. I’m good at this emotion stuff, and I’m I’m emotionally intelligent. But what I discovered was, oh, no. There’s there’s that is not true story. And that’s a very that’s a great story to projecting out into the world, but it doesn’t really help me with my experience and doesn’t help me navigate. And this was particularly powerful because about a week after we did this debrief, I ended up in hospital with my son for a routine checkup. He was born with a hole in his heart.

Nicky Lowe [00:40:05]:
He spent the first year of his life in and out hospital. And every two years now he goes and has a checkup. And we were there a couple of, weeks ago. And it was really interesting because he’s now 12. So, you know, this is twelve years on. But being back in that environment, in the same kind of hospital ward with the same machines that bleep, I had quite a strong visceral experience, so I could feel something in my body. And I was able to rationalize it away going, you know, yeah, that was a tough year, and, oh, isn’t that interesting that it’s triggered so much for me? But, yeah, he’s all great now, and that was fine. We had this hospital appointment.

Nicky Lowe [00:40:47]:
And that evening, I went to bed with the most excruciating stomach pains. Like, I was like, wow. What’s this? I think I need to go to the hospital and get myself checked. Like, genuinely, I was really, really concerned. And luckily, later that week, I had it went by the next morning. But later that week, I had a body alignment session. One of my friends is like a somatic body alignment expert. And she was like, what has happened in your body since the last time we met? And I was like, don’t know.

Nicky Lowe [00:41:17]:
She was like, something’s changed. You’ve done something different. And I was like, no. No. And we just got chatting about life. And in that conversation, I I mentioned that I’d been to the hospital with my son, and she was like, keep talking. Something’s changing in your body as you’re talking. And I was like she went, carry on talking.

Nicky Lowe [00:41:35]:
And she was like, your fascia is starting to release as you’re talking about your son in the hospital. And she was like, what was your experience in the hospital? And I started to join the docs, and I’d obviously had what I think was a traumatic response to being back there. But I’d shut it down, and it had got stored physically in my body. And I was like, oh, wow. And having if we hadn’t have had the conversation and done this work, I don’t think I would have been able to make sense of that as powerfully as I was able to. So I’d love to just kind of share a bit of that, and I wonder what questions you’ve got for me based on the Yeah.

Scott Allender [00:42:18]:
Well, that’s so powerful. And, yeah, I guess I guess, how can you give yourself permission next time to lean into the discomfort of the emotion?

Nicky Lowe [00:42:34]:
Great question. There’s something about trusting myself, And what I mean by that is often I think, oh, I haven’t got the time or the capacity to feel at that point. Like, now’s not the time. I haven’t got the emotional bandwidth for this at the moment, or what am I gonna do with this? I’m sat here in the hospital, almost like it’s an inconvenience.

Scott Allender [00:43:00]:
Yeah. And I expected sorry. I don’t mean to jump in, but I really expected you to say something like that because I hear that from threes all the time. It’s this, this hardwiring that well, now is not the time. Like, I I will deal with it later. Right? It’s like it’s inefficient. Yes. And so much of what irritates a three in life in general is anything that feels inefficient.

Scott Allender [00:43:26]:
Right? And so emotions are inefficient in the sense that you can’t put parameters around them and say, I will feel it for exactly this period of time, and then I will do x with it, and that’ll that would be really nice and neat. Yeah. So part of leaning in and allowing ourselves to experience it is to say, I have to let things just stop right now. I’m in the hospital with my son, and I’m just gonna let every sense I have about efficiency and what I need to do next just go away. Everything, you know, everything will still be there, and I’m just gonna be in this fully. Right? And that’s a hard, hard thing for three to do.

Nicky Lowe [00:44:06]:
Yeah. And I also as you were talking, then I was thinking, there’s something about and I know this is probably a three. And once I understood it in the way that you explained it to me, I could kind of fully own it rather than judging it about myself in that it’s really important for me to to appear strong and capable. Mhmm. And I know that that’s the three trait is that how we appear to others. And, you know, I know with every being being of my body that actually, you know, Brene Brown’s stuff around, you know, daring greatly and our power is in our vulnerability, and I really admire those that can be in touch with that. And I’m like, oh, I wanna be more like that. And yet when those moments kind of come to me, I’m like, no.

Nicky Lowe [00:44:53]:
I’m strong. I’m capable. I I I can I can choose a a a better response in this situation? And what I denied in me and the physical response that created, I’m like, oh, wow. Like, it had to talk to me a different way through pain for me to go, do you know what? That was really painful being back in that hospital, and, wow, that was a tough year. And just that kindness and compassion for myself, I just didn’t give myself the opportunity to even acknowledge that.

Scott Allender [00:45:23]:
I love that you’re doing the somatic work too because that is the final piece. And we talked about emotional intelligence being explored with only the head, and we gotta make space for the emotions. And that that final piece is the physical piece. And, you know, I’ve shared my story at the beginning with my physical what felt like a physical betrayal was actually an alarm that said, hey, dummy. You need to pay attention to what you’re actually feeling, what’s actually going on inside of you. And your physical stomach pains was also a manifestation. Enneagram nine who I was coaching. And, she says, I love the Enneagram.

Scott Allender [00:46:06]:
I love everything I’m learning so much has come to light, but I don’t want this thing about anger you’re talking about. You said I’m part of the anger triad, and I don’t resonate with that. I just don’t have anger. And I’m like, okay. I’m not here to convince you that there’s anger. That’s fine. Okay. Few months later, she calls me up and she says, alright, Scott.

Scott Allender [00:46:27]:
Could be something to this anger thing. And I was like, tell me more. And she said, well, my acupuncturist said she wasn’t gonna see me anymore. And I said, why? She said, well, she said, there’s not enough needles in this place to help me because I’ve got so much anger trapped in my body that I have to release it first. And she said, you need to go out to an empty field somewhere and with every fiber of your being, connect with that anger and let out the most guttural screams you can to release this anger, then come back and see me. She said, so I think I have to go do that before I can go back to my acupuncture. I thought that was a beautiful illustration of what happens, like, and every type would have a slightly different experience, but when we ignore the physical part, the body part, right, and that those signals are constantly coming to to alert us and remind us. So how have you felt since?

Nicky Lowe [00:47:19]:
I feel oh, you would ask me a feeling question, and I’ve gotta I’ve gotta make some good stuff. Now do you know what? I feel a bit freer in that I think the story I was telling myself, oh, you know what I mean? Introverted feeler was keeping me stuck from seeing the full picture. So I feel freer and a bit, I feel more compassionate to myself that, actually, there’s a lot going on that I’m having to learn to be more intentional about rather than kinda going, well, you’re emotionally intelligent practitioner. Of course, you should know this. Of course, you should be able to just access your emotions and articulate them better than most. And, like, all of that internal dialogue is just so unhelpful and so judgmental of just kinda going, okay. This is tough for you. And there’s a whole world that you can access if you’re a bit more patient with yourself and a bit kinder with yourself.

Nicky Lowe [00:48:25]:
And, I think it’s I’m trained in something called gestalt therapy, and gestalt is all about wholeness and about, actually, we’ve got disowned parts of ourself. And the the kind of goal of it is to become as integrated and accept all of our parts. And I think what has happened for me, I think, is I’ve accepted that there’s a part of me that really struggles with that, and that’s okay. And I wanna kinda get to know that part a bit better. So I wanna thank you for giving me that gift of being able to do that. And I think this conversation is so important, I think, particularly for my audience because what we know is that particularly for women, we have a higher rate of experiencing things like autoimmune system diseases because we have been conditioned more often than not to swallow up our emotions, take care of others, be more focused on other people’s experience than our own experience. And I’m hoping that sharing the Enneagram and a little bit into, you know, just the the the short conversation we’ve had, it’s opened up people’s curiosity about, oh, what else am I not seeing? What else fits beneath us? And I know that the Enneagram, there’s a lot more that does sit under this in terms of subtypes and wings and all kinds of things that we won’t even go into today. But if there was kind of something that you would want people to take away from the conversation we’ve had so far about the Enneagram, what would that be?

Scott Allender [00:50:02]:
It might be what you just said in your own reflection, which is a sort of compassionate curiosity. Right? We want to do this with gentleness and self friendship. This isn’t about looking underneath the waterline and then judging all those things or feeling shame that we’re holding a story that’s not serving us any longer. It’s getting curious about why am I holding that story. Is that story true? Like, what is the you know, what does young Nikki you know, let’s go back to young Nikki and, you know, when she was a girl and and and internalizing these messages, like, with compassion and curiosity and empathy and forgiveness. Like, those are the postures, and that’s and that’s also the posture we wanna take with others. The Enneagram is such a powerful tool. You can also get weaponized.

Scott Allender [00:50:58]:
Right? We can then unintentionally say, well, you’re doing that because you’re three. Right? Or stop being such an eight or and that’s completely the inverse of what we want. I want I want people to go on a journey of passionate self discovery and deep empathy for the other people and all the stories they hold because everybody’s carrying a frame. Everybody’s carrying a wound. Everybody needs to pursue some form of healing somewhere. And would it be beautiful if we could create the space for ourselves and other people to do that well?

Nicky Lowe [00:51:31]:
Let’s give Megan a response, Scott. Because that just brings me on to one of the pieces with the Enneagram that I hadn’t realized. I thought it was all about finding your type. But, actually, I think you explained to me it’s not about kind of finding where you are on those kind of nine types, but being able to to adapt and flex. I’m probably not explaining it half as well as as I can do. Would you mind sharing your perspective on that?

Scott Allender [00:51:57]:
Yeah. It’s you know, I like to say that you don’t have an enneagram type. Your enneagram type has you. Right? So you talked about the gestalt therapy and sort of integration, and that’s kind of the invitation. It’s sort of like we’ve touched on this, but it’s sort of like my type has me in its grip. And what the journey is that Enneagram ultimately is a map for transformation. So this you start walking the map, and you’ve got the numbers to the left and the right, which are known as your wings, and those wings help you start to become build more balance. So as a three, my wings are four and two.

Scott Allender [00:52:31]:
And so as when I went on the journey of learning everything I can about why I’m a three and how and and what that means, the next stop was to sort of lean on the four wing and start to lean on how that four motivation and strategy can actually help me get unstuck. And the two, how does that help me get unstuck? And then you’ve got these connecting lines. In in our case, our lines are to point six and to point nine, and that becomes more advanced. Enneagram work where you kinda go kind of do some retrospective work in your past, and then you kinda use the other line to move forward. And so all of this becomes this sort of map in motion, and we learn to sort of walk the map to kind of recover the lost parts of ourselves and become a more fully integrated whole person. We’ll never stop being our dominant type, but we stop reacting to have so much automation and conditioning. We stop only seeing the world from the vantage point of point three in our case. Right? We start to widen the space between stimulus and response and with more intentionality and conscientiousness, lean on these other resources to make better sense of the world around us, better sense of our experience, foster more well-being, and so on.

Scott Allender [00:53:48]:
So it’s a, it’s not a static tool. It’s a it’s a journey.

Nicky Lowe [00:53:54]:
Deeply powerful one. So I am sure there are gonna be people listening going, oh my goodness. How can I find out more about the Enneagram? How can I find more about what Scott does? Obviously, there’s your book that I’ve got here, the Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence that we highly recommend people kind of look at and start to explore. But how else can they contact you and find out more about you?

Scott Allender [00:54:17]:
Yeah. You can go to scottallender.com, and I’ve got a list of workshops and coaching opportunities. Find me there. You can find me if you have Instagram and you wanna follow along. I have an account called EQ Enneagram, and I do short form posting on Enneagram stuff. Those are probably the two best places, honestly.

Nicky Lowe [00:54:40]:
And I also discovered you’d got the the tool that you developed for organizations. Is it the Oh, yeah.

Scott Allender [00:54:46]:
The any of Flip.

Nicky Lowe [00:54:47]:
I was like,

Scott Allender [00:54:48]:
yeah. I did this during COVID because I get, so many questions. Right? You do a workshop and people go, okay. That was a lot of information. I’m I’m I I have I’m holding on to what you said about my type pretty well, but I’m never gonna remember all of the other types. Right? So you told me about the different motivations. You told me about the different all the different things. Right? Communication style and genius and blind spots and all the things.

Scott Allender [00:55:11]:
I wanna use this in my organization, but I’m not really sure how to retain enough information to use it well. So came up with the Anyaflip. I don’t know if I have it at hand. I don’t think I have it on my desk. And it’s just like a memory jogger. So the crux of it is so the first few pages are kind of a refresher on the Enneagram, what it is, where it came from, little quick overview on the body, head, and heart types. But then at the center, it’s sort of the pages divide. And so on the left, you can find your type.

Scott Allender [00:55:41]:
I could flip to type three, and I could say, okay. Here’s a reminder of what I bring to the table at work. Here’s my potential blind spots. Here’s my natural communication style. Here’s how I could think about being better at work in a in a more helpful way. And, oh, I’m gonna go meet with so and so who’s a five. What what was the deal with five again? And on the right side, I flip to five, and I look at their genius and their potential blind spots and their communication style. So the idea was before I go into that important meeting where we’ve got to get to an agreement on something, instead of me coming at you like a three, I remember that you’re a five.

Scott Allender [00:56:16]:
And I then therefore, how you hear, see, think, and feel naturally. And I then get a refresher really quickly, not to manipulate, but to connect. And so it’s been a really powerful tool. We’ve got a lot of Enneagram coaches that are, buying them to put into their workshops because it’s like a really helpful takeaway in organizational life specifically.

Nicky Lowe [00:56:36]:
Fantastic. I’ll put all the links in the show notes, but thank you, Scott, for joining me and just for the wisdom that you bring to this and that you’re taking it out into the world. And thank you for inspiring me to do kind of more reflection around this.

Scott Allender [00:56:50]:
I’ve loved our time. Thank you so much, Nikki.

Nicky Lowe [00:56:52]:
Thanks, Scott. If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Wisdom for Working Mums, I’d love for you to share it on social media or with the amazing women in your life. I’d also love to connect with you, so head over to illuminate-group.co.uk, where you’ll find ways to stay in touch. And if this episode resonated with you, one of the best ways to support the show is by subscribing and leaving a review on iTunes. Your review helps other women discover this resource, so together we can lift each other up as we rise. So thanks for listening. Until next time, take care.