Nicky Lowe [00:00:06]:
Hi, it’s Nicky Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom for Working Mums podcast show. I’m your host, and for nearly 2 decades now, I’ve been an executive coach and leadership development consultant. And on this show, I share evidence-based insights from my coaching, leadership, and psychological expertise, and inspiring interviews that help women like you to combine your work life and motherhood in a more successful and sustainable way. Join Join me and my special guests as we delve into leadership and lifestyle topics for women, empowering you to thrive one conversation at a time. I’m so happy that you’re here, and let’s get on with today’s episode. 1 in 6 people are affected by infertility. Just take that in for a moment, because there’s a good chance that someone in our lives is navigating the uncertainty and the emotional toll of trying to build a family. And for many of them, they’re doing it quietly, while continuing to show up at work as though everything is fine.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:11]:
Because while you’re navigating appointments, treatments, uncertainty, disappointment, and sometimes loss, work doesn’t simply stop. You’re expected to still turn up, perform, lead, meet targets, sit in meetings, make decisions. And alongside everything you’re already carrying, there can be another layer of worry. Do I tell my manager? How much do I share? Will they understand? Will they see me differently? Could this affect my career? And how on earth do I manage all of this alongside the demands of my job? But there’s another side to this conversation too. If you’re the manager, someone chooses to confide in you, do you know what to say? Do you understand what they might be experiencing? And perhaps most importantly, do you know what you can do to actually support them? My guest today is Natalie Silverman, co-founder and Chief Commercial Officer at Fertility Matters at Work, an organisation dedicated to helping workplaces better support people navigating fertility and family-building challenges. Natalie has spent more than a decade advocating for people experiencing fertility challenges. Following her own experience of fertility treatment, she launched the Fertility Podcast in 2014, the UK’s first podcast dedicated to a subject that at the time was rarely spoken about openly. That work eventually took Natalie into organisations and led her to co-found Fertility Matters at Work, where she now works with employers to raise awareness and create more fertility-friendly workplaces.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:04]:
So today, we’re going to look at this from both sides. We’re going to explore what it’s really like to navigate fertility and family-building challenges alongside your career, why so many people still feel unable to talk about it at work, and what organisations can do better. But I also want to make this really practical for managers because you don’t need to be a fertility expert to make a difference. You do need to understand the role you can play in making someone feel safe, supported, and able to navigate an incredibly difficult period of their life without feeling that they also have to sacrifice their career. So I won’t keep you any longer. Let’s welcome Natalie. So welcome, Natalie. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Natalie Silverman [00:03:50]:
It’s lovely to be here. Thank you, Nicky.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:52]:
So obviously today we’re talking about fertility in the workplace, and I’m wondering if you can share a little bit of your background about what’s brought you to do this work.

Natalie Silverman [00:04:03]:
Sure. Well, I mean, it’s lived experience, quite frankly. Um, myself and 2 co-founders, uh, both female Uh, co-founders all came together with lived experience of a lack of support of going through fertility treatment in the workplace. My story was I was hosting a breakfast radio show, so I was in commercial radio. I used to work for Heart, and in the time that I’d been doing a breakfast show, I’d met my partner. So there’d been all of that meeting someone, and then we’d moved in, and then we’d got engaged. All of that kind of was part of sharing our lives with our listeners, um, And then we ultimately discovered we needed to have fertility treatment in order to have a family. And there was no way I was gonna talk about that on air.

Natalie Silverman [00:04:47]:
And it then transpired that there wasn’t really, ’cause I was a freelancer, even though I’d been doing the same job for 5 years, there wasn’t a clear path of how I got support. So I phoned someone I’d not met through the phone system saying, what do I do about this? And they said, well, you need to say something, which obviously wasn’t the most practical guidance and the nature of fertility treatment, as I’m sure we might touch on a bit more, is, you know, your appointments have to be at a certain time. Your body’s responding to hormone treatment. I was starting work at 4:30, 5:00 in the morning, and the hours of the fertility clinic didn’t necessarily fall around my working day. So I was having to make excuses to need to go to do more of the appointments. And ultimately our treatment was successful. I have a son who’s now 11, but I use my broadcasting Uh, background to make a podcast, to make a podcast that, um, is like a decade old now. I’ve actually just stepped away from it because I— but I wanted it to be something that was talking about this, this private topic.

Natalie Silverman [00:05:47]:
And that put me in the kind of patient advocate space. And, um, I ultimately did start talking a bit more about my time at work. I’d moved to a different radio group, Bauer, who also have Grazia magazine, and they had lots of internal conversations going on about mental health in the workplace. And I replied to an email saying, have you talked about fertility? Because this was, you know, my experience. And they said, well, would you be interested in doing it with Grazia? Which I did. And they have their Womb with a View column. And I spoke about not wanting to tell my boss I was having IVF. And that led me to be invited into the corporate space.

Natalie Silverman [00:06:28]:
And at a similar time, my now 2 co-founders were talking, um, and I knew one of them but not the other. But we got together, and literally just before the pandemic shut us all down, we’d met and we’d mapped out what we felt needed to change, which I’m sure we’ll talk more about. But that Fertility Matters at Work was, was born.

Nicky Lowe [00:06:49]:
Brilliant. Thank you for sharing that story because we’ve spoken, but I didn’t know that complete story. So that’s You know, and just I can see why you’ve got a passion for the work that you do, and what and and that lived experience I think just cements how important this is. So we hear more and more about fertility these days, but it’s still somewhat of a taboo subject still. And I wonder if you can share your perspective on that. Why do you think it’s it’s still so taboo? And Do we know if fertility treatments are on the rise? Because we seem to hear about it more and more.

Natalie Silverman [00:07:29]:
I think in answer to your first question, it’s a very personal thing to tell people that, first of all, you’re pregnant. You know, there’s the whole, you wait 12 weeks and that’s when you’re meant to tell. So to tell people you’re trying to have a baby, and especially in the work setting is huge, especially for women, because assumptions are made, unfortunately, because of a lack of understanding about the success of fertility treatment. So there’s an assumption, say somebody tells their line manager that that person will then be on maternity. But the reality is that fertility treatment often doesn’t work first time. It’s about under 30%. Sorry, my cat’s just appeared. It’s about 31% of treatments that work first time.

Natalie Silverman [00:08:18]:
So If you think that you’ve got this amazing science that enables people to have a chance to try to, to have a baby and fertility, infertility is impacting 1 in 6 people globally. So if you think of the stats, there’s a lot of people, there’s more people going through it, but societally it’s still perceived to be a choice, a lifestyle choice. So there’s a lot of work to be done on people understanding that for the people that need fertility treatment, It was through circumstance, not through choice. And I think until we’ve got that societal piece better— I mean, you know, there’s been many more storylines in like soap operas, and there’s more celebrities talking about it, but then there’s still quite a backlash when you read the comments, you know, if you do read the comments around these types of stories. So I think there’s quite a big piece of work unfortunately still to be done. It’s definitely changed. Like I said, I’ve been in this space for over a decade. My son’s 11, and I’m very much in the bubble.

Natalie Silverman [00:09:15]:
because it’s what I do, you know, day to day. Um, so I think things have shifted, but then in terms of more people having treatment, the reality is, is that our fertility is on the decline. There’s a significant impact with sperm health. There’s a lack of awareness that it’s 50/50 male/female factor. So I think last year it was about 54,000 rounds of IVF that were recorded. That might not be 100% accurate, but it’s around 50,000. And if you think of the population, And I’m saying those numbers, 1 in 6, they’re the numbers that we know because people have treatment abroad as well because it’s cheaper. We’ve got a whole issue around people having access to NHS-funded treatment.

Natalie Silverman [00:09:58]:
And I know we have a lot of issues with our National Health Service and there’s a whole nother conversation about whether people should be entitled to funded treatment. But with that point alone, infertility is classed by the World Health Organization as a disease of the reproductive system. So when we talk about perceptions, we’ve got people believing that this is a lifestyle choice where we’ve got this condition of infertility being classed as a, as a medical condition that requires a medical intervention to be treated. So there’s a bit— you wouldn’t say to a cancer patient, you know, you should sort your own treatment out, or you wouldn’t even say to somebody who’s diabetic or somebody who’s broken a leg, you need to go and pay for that because it’s not You know, there’s, there’s different levels of misunderstanding about the condition.

Nicky Lowe [00:10:48]:
You’ve highlighted so many issues around, kind of from a sociology perspective. And I’m— I was just, as you were talking, I was also thinking, I know when we, we initially spoke, I shared with you that I had secondary infertility. And so there was a level with that around, oh, I, I could conceive naturally with my first, but then couldn’t with my second. And then, you know, people didn’t understand that either. And I totally underestimated how that would make me feel, like I felt like I was personally failing. And I luckily work for myself. I hadn’t got to have a conversation with a line manager, but just that level of psychological resistance. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:11:35]:
of telling somebody like, oh, actually, I’m struggling in this area. Um, I was also imagining that layered on top of this about actually it just becomes this— how do you share so that you’re gonna— it’s gonna land in the way that you want it to and you feel psychologically safe to share something that is so deeply, deeply personal?

Natalie Silverman [00:11:58]:
You’re exactly right, and that’s a lot of the work we do, is to try and create that culture within the workplace where people do feel psychologically safe. And a lot of that is signaling. It’s having these conversations out in the open. It’s having peer support. You know, if there can be policy, that is the ideal, that there’s guidance around what somebody is entitled to in terms of support. So it’s a consistent approach because often people talk about a line manager lottery and they’ll say, you said you work for yourself. I was self-employed, um, as well, but I was at the time working for an organization and my manager bless his heart, talked in football analogies. So I didn’t really feel he was the most empathetic person into what I might need support-wise.

Natalie Silverman [00:12:38]:
That’s not to say it’s gender-specific as to the response, because we’ve heard all sorts of where the compassion sits. So I’m not in any way stereotyping who is understanding and who isn’t. But I think there needs to be an understanding that somebody can go and say, this is happening. But it’s that whole ethos, isn’t it, of taking your whole self to work and Whether people feel they can do that.

Nicky Lowe [00:13:02]:
Yeah, and I think that brings us really nicely on to the next question around what might a colleague, or particularly a line manager, need to understand about that fertility journey if they’ve not experienced it themselves or don’t know anybody that’s going through it. Part of us could say, well, that’s personal, just leave it out the workplace, but as you are, I’m sure, going to explain, it’s not as simple as that, and actually, we do want to bring our whole selves to work. So what might people need to know if they’re not familiar with what that might entail?

Natalie Silverman [00:13:34]:
I think if we’re talking about fertility treatment specifically, it’s important for colleagues and managers to understand what the treatment involves in terms of the working day, because we’re talking about a course of hormone injections that have to be taken over a period of time and have to be monitored by the clinic. So the individual is going to have to go back and forth for blood tests and scans. So there’s a travel element. So, are they able to work from home? Are they able to not be on a big project that demands them to be client-facing? Or are they able to not have to be traveling or at a conference? Is there some flexibility that can be added into the working day? We talk about this as being a temporary period of time. So, if you’re listening thinking, oh my goodness, but this isn’t permanent. This is a temporary period of time. We’re talking about maybe 2 to 3 weeks. It might be longer that the actual physical element of the fertility treatment is happening that those adjustments are going to really come into play.

Natalie Silverman [00:14:32]:
So there’s the, there’s travel time, there’s the need to inject. So is there somewhere— because the medication has to be stored in the fridge— so is there somewhere that somebody could go and inject that isn’t really the loo? You know, can they have their medication in a fridge, ideally, you know, not in a lunchbox, and then be fearful that someone might grab that lunchbox? Um, there’s also communication from the clinic about how you’re progressing. Can people take phone calls, you know, and not be judged? Can they step out of the meeting? Is there a safe space they could go to take that call? Because what might happen is you might be being called to say it’s not working, or it might be that you’ve got to come now. You know, there’s, there’s an element where it’s hard to plan. And so the line manager colleague needs to be supportive that the person isn’t trying to be difficult. This is a hormone treatment that’s going to affect people in different ways. Some people talk about looking pregnant when they’re just desperately trying to become pregnant. So from that workplace culture piece, let’s not be making comments to people, you know, about how they look and what they’re wearing, if possible.

Natalie Silverman [00:15:35]:
There’s also consideration if uniforms are being worn. You know, this— there’s a long list here of, of things to take into consideration. But I think there’s things as well, for example, certain elements of the treatment are invasive and they need a whole day off. So they need, for example, the egg collection, you need to be under sedation and you need to be at the fertility clinic. There’s also the partner. If we’re talking about, for example, a heterosexual couple, the male partner will potentially want to be there as much as possible, you know. So is there that understanding and support for those that aren’t going through the physicality of, of the treatment? And this is where that kind of gender piece comes in. a lot of the physical side of fertility treatment is on the woman, but that’s not to say that the man isn’t impacted.

Natalie Silverman [00:16:22]:
And I just literally was talking to a guy who was totally overlooked, and they went through multiple rounds of treatment and it ended up being his issue. And, you know, they went through all this heartache and turmoil, but he’d been continuing to be overlooked, and the whole workplace piece was a challenge for him. So I think all of those different pieces when it comes to understanding what’s involved in IVF is a really good starting point for a line manager, but also knowing that you don’t have to fix this, you don’t have to know it all. You can say to the person, I don’t know anything about it, what do you need? As simple as that.

Nicky Lowe [00:16:57]:
Yes, and I love that because you’re highlighting there’s a real time-critical aspect, that it’s, it’s a specific amount of time, but it’s very time-critical. And that piece around the flexibility and the ability to, to work remotely, have more control over your, your time, as well as the physical aspects. I think there’s a huge amount in there. So you’ve just alluded to as well, if somebody was to come to a line manager and say, and, and make a disclosure, can you suggest what might be a useful way of responding to that? And also, what are some of the, perhaps the pitfalls that people fall into Unintentionally, I am imagining, a lot of the time. Could you just share some kind of best practice?

Natalie Silverman [00:17:44]:
Yeah, sure. I mean, we’ve got kind of lists of dos and don’ts. I think try and stay in the moment rather than a reaction being, oh my goodness, how am I going to manage that maternity? Because the reality, unfortunately, as I said earlier, is that treatment doesn’t work first time. And somebody might have gone through all of the things I’ve just mentioned and then find out it hasn’t worked. And so You know, there’s a real nervousness, there’s a real vulnerability and an anxiousness that’s coming with all of this. I think the other thing is, if you know a friend or you’ve seen something or you’ve read something about it, don’t offer unsolicited advice. Oh, I know someone and they did this and that happened. That point I made about tell me what you need is a really good starting point.

Natalie Silverman [00:18:29]:
Also, how would you like me to kind of check in with you? Because some people talk about how work is their everything and they don’t want this to be their identity. It’s enough that it’s going on in their private life. They don’t want everybody asking them and talking about it, which is really hard for a manager to then navigate. So ask the person how they would be more comfortable. Do they want you to check in with them, or should you wait for them to tell you where you’re at? If it is talking about that flexible working setup, what does that look like when they know they’ve got treatment? Is it easier if they work from home? Are they okay if you’re gonna maybe take that piece away from them? Because what we don’t want is assumptions being made of somebody’s ability to work, because that does happen and it’s not fair. The person might want to throw themselves into work, but equally, they might not know what they need. So— It can be a little bit tricky, but I think having that open conversation— I think ideally, if there is a policy in place, the manager being aware of what that entitlement is, because the person’s probably looked. If there is a policy, they’ll go to the manager and say, I know I’m entitled to this.

Natalie Silverman [00:19:43]:
Because whilst there’s still a significant amount of workplaces that aren’t putting support in place, there are more and more who are enabling people to have paid time off to attend fertility treatment appointments, or they’re signposting them to special leave. So it doesn’t have to be annual leave or sick leave. What I’d hope, if you’re listening to this, is your default isn’t to go, you’ve got to take that as sick. You know, we don’t want— people aren’t sick, and this isn’t a holiday. This is a medical procedure for a medical condition.

Nicky Lowe [00:20:13]:
Talk there about policy, and I know that you are really keen to make sure that workplaces not only have effective policy, but that policy lived in the culture. So can you share a bit about the work that you do with organizations around this?

Natalie Silverman [00:20:29]:
Yeah, sure. So I mean, policy is a go-to for many, but we don’t want it to be that tick box exercise, and there’s no point if it’s not fit for purpose. So we offer consultancy on the tone of voice really around it because it is sensitive, and we try to highlight that ideally people will be able to have paid time off for the reasons that I just mentioned. But I think that also needs to be understood that there’s many different routes to parenthood. So we need to have that understanding. Somebody might be an intended parent if they’re going down a surrogacy route. They might be adopting. They might be using donor eggs.

Natalie Silverman [00:21:06]:
There’s nuances that we educate the organizations on, on the many routes to parenthood. They might be a solo person going through treatment. Might be in a same-sex relationship, there might be a non-birthing person who’s your employee. So there’s all these different elements that we try to help on in the policy piece. But we also just try to help bring that conversation to life about those different routes to parenthood. So that can be by awareness-raising conversations and panel discussions with lived experience. But we’ve also got training specifically for managers to really get their heads around how this is quite big topic and it’s quite vast. And I said, we don’t want you as a manager to fix it, but at least if you want to be that transformational leader, know about this stuff.

Natalie Silverman [00:21:55]:
There’s not really an excuse to be like, I’ve got no reference here, I can’t help. Having those kind of tools in place, and we’ve got lots of resources. We’re a social impact organization anyway, so we’ve got loads of resources and I can share more with you. But What we don’t want is that managers to be fearful and say nothing. We want them to go, you know, some of the examples I said, or, you know, encouraging that individual to say, you know, you tell me and how best we can work around it with you.

Nicky Lowe [00:22:25]:
Brilliant. So, how would you also suggest with colleagues? Because line managers, there’s almost an expectation that we need to disclose to a degree. But when it comes to just your colleagues and friends at work, as you say, with 1 in 6, there’s a likelihood that, you know, we’re going to come across many colleagues in our career that knowingly or unknowingly are going through some kind of treatment. So, what advice have you got there?

Natalie Silverman [00:22:57]:
Well, peer support is another huge part of how we work with organisations. So many people will say they didn’t say anything because of the fear of judgment, of not being committed to their job, of maybe being overlooked for promotion. But then when they actually did decide to confide in somebody, maybe at the coffee machine or in a more relaxed environment, they then realized that the person sat next to them has gone through exactly the same, and they couldn’t believe that nobody Spoke about it. So I think encouraging people—you’re not just going to stand up and go, “By the way, everybody, this was my.” But there’s quite a lot of like awareness weeks. Like we’re talking in October, we’re coming up to Baby Loss Awareness Week. There’s Fertility Week in November. Maybe it’s an opportunity for somebody to write a blog if they don’t feel happy talking openly about it and sharing that within one of your networks. Or maybe if you’ve noticed that somebody is feeling seeming a bit.

Natalie Silverman [00:23:57]:
off, just asking, how are you? You know, are you okay? Is there anything going on that you’d be happy to talk to me about? You know, just being mindful of people around you who might not be on their A-game is just a simple part of that compassion piece. But I think the other thing is being aware of triggers in the workplace. So baby showers, pregnancy announcements, Which are joyful moments that we want to celebrate. But there might be people who might be newly married, or they might be people that you might have thought might have been at that place in terms of starting a family. Just be aware that maybe there’s something going on. And so, if there are those things, like babies being brought into the office or announcements on the intranet, maybe there’s a way of them being possible for people to opt out, because that starts to say to people who are struggling, okay, this isn’t in my face, and maybe I can take a breath and say something. Um, because too many people always say they never said anything about it because they just didn’t feel they could. And the only way we can do it is to encourage the conversation.

Natalie Silverman [00:25:13]:
So there’s opportunities to have, you know, coffee mornings Just starting to signal that, that these things are okay to talk about. You know, we go into organisations to talk about it, so maybe it’s a case of bringing in somebody externally to bring this topic to life. And often, sadly, we have so many people put their hand up and say, thank you so much, this is me, and I just didn’t feel I could say anything.

Nicky Lowe [00:25:37]:
Without being in that situation, people will never understand how painful and triggering that can be. So We can hold 2 things to be true. Like, it’s lovely to be able to do baby showers and be happy for somebody, and also know that that can be incredibly painful and traumatic for somebody that is going on a different journey at that time. And I don’t think enough organizations even have that in their awareness. So, so many times they can be unintentionally causing pain and harm in the workplace. So I think it’s brilliant that you’ve got resources for people to think about how do we, if we’ve not thought about that. How do we? And I know that your, your work goes beyond individual organizations and you’re looking to help support more kind of general legislation change. Can you share a bit more about kind of what you’re doing in that area?

Natalie Silverman [00:26:32]:
Yeah, so the ideal situation that we’d like to see is that it is a statutory right for there to be paid time off for people to attend fertility treatment appointments, because there isn’t. And that’s where it all gets a bit blurry in terms of what people are entitled to. And sadly, we’ve had lots of people get in touch with us about how they’ve been treated, and there might be kind of NDAs having to be signed, people being pushed out of, you know, their, their, their work environments because they haven’t been able to perform because they’ve been stressed as a result of the fertility treatment. I mean, We, for example, have done a lot of research now. We’re 6 years old and we know how important the data is. And 99% of a sample of over 1,000 people talked about the impact it had on their mental health and also that it was considered a significant life event. And then we’ve got a number of people, over 38%, talked about leaving their careers because people were taking sick leave or annual leave, having to take time off. And if there’s not that kind of understanding from the workplace, then unfortunately people will leave.

Natalie Silverman [00:27:43]:
So what we’ve been trying to highlight is that this is a people issue. This is a retention and attraction conversation. 86% of people said they would be attracted to organisations that were putting this support in place. So whilst we’re waiting for the kind of powers that be to make it as such, because at the moment what we do know is that some of the guidelines around how fertility treatment is described is comparative to a man having dental surgery. So we are trying to change some of the ways that this, um, treatment is, is written about in some of the guidance that’s happening. Um, but we have had some progress in that there’s now, um, a fertility APPG, which is an all-party parliamentary group where there’s conversations around access to fertility treatment on the NHS. Because as I mentioned before, it’s a whole other conversation, but a lot of the provision has been cut around the UK despite the guidelines from, from NICE being that people should be entitled to 3 rounds. It just doesn’t happen.

Natalie Silverman [00:28:50]:
So what happens is it’s called a postcode lottery. It depends on where you live. More and more people are having to self-fund. We know we’re in a cost of living crisis, so this is in essence costing people a ridiculous amount of money to try and have a baby. And I know that societal piece that I mentioned at the start comes into play here when people go, but it’s your choice if you want to have a baby. But it’s a human right to try to have a baby, to, to have the chance to try. And when there is that whole medical piece involved, so we’re trying to get the legislation changed. We’ve obviously now got a PM who’s announced the importance of that bereavement leave around pregnancy and baby loss, which is going to come into force in 2027.

Natalie Silverman [00:29:35]:
So what is happening is people are taking more notice because they’re now being told they have to at a state level. So I suppose our hope ultimately is that, you know, this piece of legislation will change because, um, you know, if you go to an antenatal appointment, you don’t have to take that as sick leave or annual leave. So you’re automatically saying that somebody who is pregnant at work has more of a right than somebody who’s trying to become pregnant. Those 2 appointments, they should really be more on a level playing field.

Nicky Lowe [00:30:14]:
Yeah, and as you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, we hear time and time again that we’ve got a population crisis, we need more people to to be having children. And for those that need support to have children, it’s like, this, this is really important. And later on, if somebody hasn’t had the experience of going down fertility— you’ve alluded to the cost. I mean, it is extortionate amounts of money we’re talking about here. So if somebody’s worried that they’re going to lose their job or feels that they have to step away from their job at a time when money is probably at its most critical for such a life-changing kind of journey. I can absolutely understand what people were saying from a mental health perspective because there are so many potential kind of negative impact on, on somebody’s mental well-being. So yeah.

Natalie Silverman [00:31:10]:
And I think the other point to add to that is even if all those things aren’t in place in terms of, you know, the legislation the workplace support. If somebody wants to have a, have a baby, they will do whatever they can to try to have that chance of trying. They will remortgage their house. They will, you know, fund— we’ve seen so many ways. People aren’t just going to go— Some people will, don’t get me wrong. Some people make that difficult decision to be childfree because of finances. There’s lots of people that make the decision to be childfree by other circumstance, but there’s a group of people who aren’t able to even try because of all these different circumstances that if there was an element of that workplace support thrown in, it would just relieve some of that huge emotional toll that it takes knowing that your work has got your back, that you can have that time off. And The other piece in this is that there’s a growing number of people who are trying through fertility treatment and they’re not being successful.

Natalie Silverman [00:32:17]:
So they’re what we call involuntarily childless or childless not by choice. And they also need to be recognized in the workplace. So we have a lot of amazing work in organizations that talk about working family networks or, you know, parent and carers networks. And what we also are trying to help the organizations understand is that there’s, there’s that fertility and baby loss and family building community that needs support and it needs a place to be. And then there’s those that are childless not by choice. And it’s again that whole piece around not assuming that that person is this because of this, that, or the other. And things like, oh, you left it too late because you’re a career woman— these kind of comments that are made. And I think they all just need to be understood in this whole complex mix of emotion between a kind of workforce that is— this could be around an 18-year-old going into the workforce all the way through up to when we’re talking about menopause.

Natalie Silverman [00:33:13]:
And we’ve seen amazing progress with the menopause conversation. We kind of see we’re about 5 years behind. We’ve always said we think we’re about 5 years behind. It might be a bit less. It might be 3, maybe. I don’t know. But we’re following that trajectory of the workplace understanding that this matters.

Nicky Lowe [00:33:29]:
So I— there’s so much, and I know there’s so much support that you’ve got out there, but if there’s just kind of one thing that you want somebody listening to this to take away, and I want you to think about in 2 ways. So maybe somebody that is— their kind of route to parenthood is a fertility journey. What would you want them to take away? And then also a line manager that might be listening that might need to support, or either is supporting or potentially could be in the future. What would you want them to take away from this?

Natalie Silverman [00:34:00]:
I think for the person who might have discovered that they need the treatment is to know that there is some amazing support out there. Um, first charity I’d mention is called Fertility Action in terms of getting some support from people that you can just talk to. Because if you don’t want to tell your friends and family, or you don’t want to tell your work colleagues, just don’t let it bubble up inside because it’s really isolating and it’s very unfair and there’s a whole host of emotions. And And they have weekly support groups that you can just drop in. There’s no expectation, there’s no commitment. So I definitely— and I’m happy to send you the link for Fertility Action. I think definitely get some support. Don’t deal with this alone.

Natalie Silverman [00:34:47]:
Maybe avoid going down the rabbit hole of online because there’s amazing support on Instagram with the hashtag TTC, which is trying to conceive. And I’ve seen in the last decade since I’ve been doing my podcast, that’s become amazing. There’s a lot more patient voices. So there are brilliant kind of places that you can engage, but I think just don’t do it alone if possible. I think for the line manager, um, the Compassionate Conversations Guide that we’ve got, I think, is a really great place to start, um, which I’d love, you know, people to just have a look at. It’s a free resource, and it’s just the kind of dos and don’ts of what to say. So, you know, try and avoid things like, oh God, you could have mine, you know, my— oh, you’re so lucky that you don’t have children, and, um, you know, maybe you need to change what you’re eating or go on holiday, you know, this unsolicited advice of, you know, maybe you shouldn’t, you don’t need to be thinking like that. It’s a, I don’t really understand, but I’m here to help.

Natalie Silverman [00:35:48]:
It’s, you know, have you got support? What can we do? Have we thought— let’s have a look at the commitments that you’ve got. And I appreciate that You might be a small business and thinking, I haven’t got the resource, but even in a, a small environment, we had a conversation recently with a hairdresser that was talking about just getting a few more tools to enable them to support one of their colleagues. And it’s just knowing, you know, how to ask and admitting that you don’t know, but you want to try and help. So tell me what you need, what would work best for you is, is the nicest thing, and I’m sorry that I don’t understand, but I’m really here to help, is, is, I think, you know, an amazing thing that somebody could do for someone else.

Nicky Lowe [00:36:31]:
Brilliant. And we’ll put all the links to that into the, into the show notes. So on that note, I am sure people are going to want to find out more about your organization, the work that you do. Where would you signpost people to?

Natalie Silverman [00:36:43]:
Well, the website is just fertilitymattersatwork.com. Um, we’re the same on Instagram and on LinkedIn. And we’ve got lots happening in terms of, we have regular free webinars that people can watch just to learn more. We’ve got loads of downloadable resources on our website from how to write the business case. We’ve got loads of stats. So if you’re listening, thinking, I want to tell an organization, there’s loads of resources. But also if you’re someone going through it, there’s useful things there in terms of how to have the conversation with your employer or even how to Just have the conversation with people around you because people get very interested in this topic. You know, they want to help, they want to fix, and nobody can fix this for the person going through it, the couple going through it.

Natalie Silverman [00:37:29]:
They can just offer to, to be there, to, to be kind of understanding. But it’s also things like, don’t assume that the person doesn’t want to be invited to that thing. They might not, but they also might. So It’s just leaning in a bit and asking the person what’s best for them rather than doing nothing.

Nicky Lowe [00:37:48]:
And I think you’ve covered quite a complex area so brilliantly, Natalie, so thank you. And there’s so much nuance to that, but I know that the work that you’re doing is making such a difference, like not only to individuals but collectively. You’re, you’re helping to shift the whole narrative and kind of the support that’s in place. So thank you for joining me, but also thank you for the work that you’re doing.

Natalie Silverman [00:38:12]:
Thank you. And just on what you said about the secondary piece, I mean, that’s something that isn’t spoken about. And so I think it’s also being mindful of, like you said, my story is secondary infertility. It’s not a given, even when somebody has a child, that there’s not still some grief and, you know, sadness around what— because we all have an idea of what our families— we’ll grow up thinking, oh, we’ll have this and it’ll be like this. So it’s a bigger piece than I think people realise. So thank you for giving me the chance to chat with you about it, Nicky.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:38]:
It’s been great.

Natalie Silverman [00:38:40]:
Thank you. Thank

Nicky Lowe [00:38:41]:
you. If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Wisdom for Working Mums, I’d love for you to share it on social media or with the amazing women in your life. I’d also love to connect with you, so head over to luminate-group.co.uk where you’ll find ways to stay in touch. And if this episode resonated with you, one of the best ways to support the show is by subscribing and leaving a review on iTunes. Your review helps other women discover this resource. So together we can lift each other up as we rise. So thanks for listening. Until next time, take care.

Nicky Lowe [00:39:19]:
Bye.