Nicky Lowe [00:00:06]:
Hi. It’s Nicky Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom For Working Moms podcast show. I’m your host. And for nearly 2 decades now, I’ve been an executive coach and leadership development consultant. And on this show, I share evidence based insights from my coaching, leadership, and psychological expertise and inspiring interviews that help women like you to combine your work, life, and motherhood in a more successful and sustainable way. Join me and my special guest as we delve into leadership and lifestyle topics for women, empowering you to thrive one conversation at a time. I’m so happy that you’re here and let’s go on with today’s episode. Welcome to this episode.
Nicky Lowe [00:00:47]:
And today, I’m thrilled to welcome Helen Spencer, who’s the managing partner of WR Partners. Helen and I met last year at an event her firm hosted on female leadership called Game Changers. And it celebrated the remarkable achievements of women who have made a significant impact in their respective fields. And I was struck by Helen’s leadership and the impact she’s making in her field. And we’ve since stayed in touch, and I was delighted when she agreed to join me to share her story and journey with us on the podcast. Helen’s firm, WR Partners, employs over 200 people across its offices in Shropshire, Cheshire, and Mid and North Wales. And they’re a regional accountancy and business advisory firm. But what sets Helen apart from other leaders in her field is not only that she’s female, but that she’s got a 30 year background in human resources.
Nicky Lowe [00:01:46]:
So she went from people director to managing partner, and that’s really uniquely shaped her leadership style. She’s not only driven by WR Partners’ growth, but she’s deeply passionate about her team’s well-being. And Helen is still among the minority female leaders in her in her industry. As of last year, only 15% of top 100 UK accountancy firms are led by female managing partners. And Helen’s journey from HR to managing partner is filled with some really valuable insights for us all as female leaders and as working moms, because Helen shares how she’s navigated this with 2 daughters. We’ll explore how she manages her own work life balance or what it takes to lead with compassion and how she supports working parents within her firm. Helen’s experience of being a working mum, especially with her children now being adults, offers a refreshing and really wise perspective that I’m excited to share with you. So settle in and get ready to be inspired by Helen’s story of leadership, motherhood, and achieving success on your own terms.
Nicky Lowe [00:02:58]:
I won’t keep you any longer. Let’s dive in and welcome, Helen. So welcome, Helen. Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation and for hosting me at your offices, your beautiful offices here. For those that don’t know about you and your journey, I would love it if you could talk to us about a bit about who you are and what you do now, and give us kind of a brief history of the journey you’ve gone on to get to this point,
Helen Spencer [00:03:24]:
if that’s okay. I’m the managing partner of WL Partners. So we are, accountants, tax, and business advisers. That probably is important for the first thing to say, which is I’m not an accountant. So, you know, we have 200 of us in terms of in terms of the team, You know? But my background is very much HR, so I had a probably a 30 year career in in HR, before I moved into this leadership leadership role. So I started actually the national charity doing HR. And my first opportunity, I had in HR, and I had no experience whatsoever. And a lovely lady called Sue Reid, who was recruiting, said she only gave me the job because she liked me.
Helen Spencer [00:04:13]:
There’s a lesson there to be learned, isn’t it? Yeah. But despite all the experience that you may have, there is something about that likability factor, that actually can get you far. So I got married to move to Shropshire 30 years ago, and I worked for 2 large manufacturing business in Telford, had an amazing time and had some amazing experience, but it’s not very much HR, FMCG. I think part of my story actually is how I came to WR Partners, which was putting them at the time, because I had 2 young children. They were 4 and, so 4 and and just and just had a newborn, India and Amber. They both had teacher Collins, so they both had some sort of special needs around it. And the the business I was in, it was great, but it just wasn’t flexible at all. So I had lots of hospital appointments.
Helen Spencer [00:05:05]:
I had to make my time up, and the decision I took was actually to put my career on hold. So the decision I still think it’s actually your career is 40 years, and, actually, the decision I took at that time with my husband was to say, look. I’m gonna go and get a part time job. I need more flexibility with the girls. And then when the girls go to school, I’ll restart my career. That actually was the plan. So I came here, and thought, well, actually, at the time, there probably was a hutch over a 100 thinking, well, actually, that can’t be that hard, can it? They were trying to learn. Yeah.
Helen Spencer [00:05:38]:
I mean, that’s difficult. And it was 3 days a week, and we’re not a part of the time. So we’ll just do 4 days because we were likely to get better than people. I that was fine. I never went down to 3 days a week, incidentally. I never did. I always worked I always worked 4 days, but the flexibility here was was was was great. And then I realized about myself, actually, I’m clearly quite driven because although the plan was just to come and to, effectively just take a back burner.
Helen Spencer [00:06:05]:
That doesn’t sound great for as far as the business is concerned, but just to focus on home for a while Yeah. You know, I had I’ve had this amazing career journey here, and I was made a director, as would it be. Then I was made a partner, and then I was made an equity partner. And then 5 years ago, the opportunity was was given to become the managing managing partner, and I would not have believed that was possible because I didn’t see any HR professionals becoming CEOs. In fact, I still don’t know many HR professionals that have come have have come CEOs. So whilst I often say, you know, you have to see it to believe it, but I don’t know where the internal belief came because it probably isn’t always there still. I probably thought what’s the worst that can happen. Yeah.
Helen Spencer [00:06:58]:
I probably thought, well, actually, there’s elements of the role that I probably could do, and what I can’t do, I can develop. But, yes, I I I still find myself in lots of situations where people still, introduce me as this is a managing partner that isn’t the accountable, though she runs a a lem a lem a lem a lem practice.
Nicky Lowe [00:07:33]:
Kind of come out the other side, although we never stop being abroad, and our children never stop needing us, but just in different ways. So I can’t wait to to kind of hear about those experiences. But as she said, it’s quite unique for a HR leader to then step into the MD or the CEO or in your case, managing partner role. What do you think your HR background has brought
Helen Spencer [00:07:56]:
to your leadership? I think probably a couple of things. So, you know, I’ve always been a great advocate, but ultimately, it is your business culture that drives the success of the business. Yeah. And because it’s the only thing that differentiates businesses, many of us do the same thing. Yeah. It’s how we do them or how we deliver the services that we deliver that differentiates us, and culture is driven by people. Yeah. So I guess what my HR background has brought is, you know, I’m really focused on, yes, it’s that people ex the Oracle experience as we call it, the people management and development.
Helen Spencer [00:08:38]:
People here will say, you know, that sort of giving really honest feedback, and that’s where HR experience Actually, being able to have those more difficult conversations, it’s relatively easy because that’s typically what we have to do with what we have we have done. Yes. You know, I would say but also, I think more than that. I think when you are in HR, typically, you are well well, I would say getting stuff done because you have to influence because you typically have very little authority. Yes. Yep. So I think the one skill, that it absolutely taught me was this influencing skills. And actually when you were a leader of a business, you do have to influence.
Helen Spencer [00:09:19]:
I know people think it’s often around looks easy because effectively it must be about you’re in command, now we’re in control, and actually everybody does what you want them to. That’s not the reality. I think you just have more stakeholders that you’re trying to influence. So they were the they’re the probably the 2 or 3 things I would say, is where it’s just been so helpful.
Nicky Lowe [00:09:38]:
And, again, really powerful insights, and it’s making me think about I don’t know if you’ve ever come across Kim Scott’s work. She wrote a book called Radical Candace, and that piece about having those difficult conversations, really being truthful but kind. And I’ve really heard that from you in conversations we’ve had that you’re really good at doing that, that either it’s natural, you’ve learned that through your career, the power of doing that.
Helen Spencer [00:10:02]:
Yeah. And the word I often use is intention so that when I’m giving feedback, I’m always really clear what is my intention in providing that feedback because if the individual understands that actually yes you’ve got some difficult feedback to to give to them but your intention is to help them in some way, you know I want everybody in this organization to be successful, Yeah. Success would look different for everybody, you know, but actually it’s not I don’t think it’s fair, and fairs what I often use, it’s not fair, to see people struggle and then not help them. Yeah. Or what is even worse in my mind is I say, don’t tell me, tell them. Yes. Yes. Do you know so there’s lots of conversations about individuals and their performance, but nobody’s actually talking to the individual director.
Helen Spencer [00:10:51]:
I think what my HR background has done is it’s meant I’m not afraid to have those difficult conversations. You know, I try and position them always in a way where the feedback is is acceptable. Yeah. But sometimes, you know, I also recognize that, you know, it’s people sometimes I say, oh, people don’t want to hear. You know, in reality, I’ve loved my career in HR. You know, I’ve had an amazing an amazing career, you know, and it has taught me so much, and the different environments I’ve worked in have taught me so have taught me so much, as well. And you can hear that in
Nicky Lowe [00:11:31]:
how that’s influenced the culture that you’ve built. You know that just that phrase, don’t tell me, tell them. It reminds me about I was coaching at a utilities company and coached several different managers, and they all talked about a leader that he used this analogy of a well, And he basically said, look, as a team, we’re drinking water at this well. These are the behaviors that’ll keep the water clean and purified, but here’s the behaviors that poison our water. And one of those things that they all talked about was you don’t say something behind somebody’s back that you haven’t already said to their face or wouldn’t be willing to.
Helen Spencer [00:12:03]:
And
Nicky Lowe [00:12:03]:
he really called people out on that, and it really, really made people think about, well, what am I saying about other people? And am I am I giving the feedback that’s needed or am I or am I just wasting energy on something that I’m not willing to do anything about?
Helen Spencer [00:12:20]:
It’s a bit of 3 360 feedback, isn’t it? And in fact, I’ve just we’ve just got it around with our partners 360 feedback. And one of the things I always say to them is, this is my feedback. This is what I have written. Yeah. Brilliant. Because otherwise, it’s just a it’s it’s literally it’s a it’s a it’s a rose of sentences. You know, but my view is I shouldn’t write something, but nobody should write something unless they are prepared to sit by the side of them or sit in front of them and say, this is what I
Nicky Lowe [00:12:44]:
have written. Brilliant. I love that. Because often people in 3 sixes have got, I know who’s written that anyway. It’s true, but owning it, isn’t it?
Helen Spencer [00:12:50]:
It’s like It’s true, isn’t it? Like, yeah. True, isn’t it? Like, yeah. Like, I and I won’t say anything, you know, about you, that I wouldn’t say to your face. Yeah. Because, again, that that that creates that culture that just isn’t helpful, isn’t it? You know? At least I would always say, no. We don’t get everything, but I certainly don’t get everything right. But I think it’s that. You know, what is my intention? My intention, you know, is to enable people, yeah, every single one of our team members to be their best.
Helen Spencer [00:13:17]:
That’s what I want to see happen.
Nicky Lowe [00:13:19]:
And I imagine that’s more rare in your industry, which is typically about numbers. Yeah. Yes. It is. Yeah.
Helen Spencer [00:13:27]:
Yeah. It’s all about metrics, isn’t it? Yeah.
Nicky Lowe [00:13:29]:
And I would imagine as a, again, a massive generalization in your industry, but might be high IQ, but not necessarily always high EQ. And what you’re bringing to your culture around, no, this this emotional intelligence is so important for us to be able to operate effectively.
Helen Spencer [00:13:46]:
It it is. I talk about outputs and inputs. You know, the reality is in in in certainly my industry and even probably some of the some of the internal meetings that that I have, there’s a great focus on what I call the outputs. So the outputs here is fees. The outputs is is is profitability. But that is only driven by the inputs. So the inputs are here. It’s our employee engagement because our employees actually drive our client our our our client work, and it ultimately the client engagement too, isn’t it? So it’s it’s ensuring that the activity is balanced, because I say you’re not going to improve those outputs unless you really focus on the inputs.
Helen Spencer [00:14:25]:
About.
Nicky Lowe [00:14:25]:
I know and old boss of mine used to call it, you’ve got your KPIs, but you’ve got your, what do you call them, KLI? So the leading indicators that leads to the performing indicators. Right? Yeah. I
Helen Spencer [00:14:35]:
love that. Yes. Another question I often ask in my meetings is about, okay, so how does it feel? That’s a very EQ question, isn’t it? And, you know, but you’ve got you’ve got to the end of a conversation. So, okay, how’s everybody feeling now? And I’m not afraid. I’m probably people here were used to me asking those feeling questions because the fee how we feel is is absolutely what drives what we do. Brilliant.
Nicky Lowe [00:15:01]:
And, again, I imagine that’s a really rare thing to be I mean, I know just from kind of my kind of commercial experience how rare that is, but, again, in this industry as well. And obviously you’re you’re a successful female leader and I’m hoping there’s going to come a time where we don’t have to put that female leader piece in front, but I know that you’ve got kind of significant experience of being a woman in a in a senior position. What I’m imagining is still quite male dominated in its industry, and I wonder what what are your insights from kind of
Helen Spencer [00:15:32]:
that experience? And it has taken me some time. It probably is still taking me some time to do this because I think it’s around, I think you have to define your own personal and your own business success. So what is your definition of success versus what others are defining as sex? And I’ve been to those dinners and, you know, effectively, everybody’s drinking red wine, and the conversation gets back to what car do you arrive and you you holiday home and you you or whatever else is they want to talk about, and it’s all quite materialistic. As somebody who likes nice things, so please, I’m not saying the material is is is is is wrong. But I as a female, I think there’s an estimate of, you’ve gotta find the definition of success. Some of that isn’t just because you’re female, actually. Some of it’s around actually what’s important to you personally, what your what your what your what your values are. I think I’ve had to work really hard on my imposter syndrome, if I’m honest.
Helen Spencer [00:16:32]:
You know, I still sit in those meetings and, particularly, you know, there there are people who can be quite noisy, and I can find myself going, oh my goodness me, you know, and I think my my my takeaway has just been just keep true to you, keep true to your business, Actually define your own success, and it’s okay to be different.
Nicky Lowe [00:16:54]:
I love that. And you were saying to me earlier about actually even taking on the role as managing partner kind of felt like a stress. And imagine the imposter syndrome kicks off massively at that point. And just being willing to take that risk, it’s like, oh, actually, this feels uncomfortable, but trusting yourself enough to go, well, I can learn the stuff that I don’t yet know on what what’s the worst that can happen.
Helen Spencer [00:17:18]:
And, also, I think there was an element of, you know, clearly, I I I took over my accountant. I took over from a, you know, from a from a male, probably of a different generation too. And I think fairly early on, almost, saying, look. It is gonna be different. Mhmm. You know? I’m not trying to be somebody else. And I went to a rent and stuff, and somebody said to me, well, you’ve got 4 big shoes to fill. And I I hadn’t really thought about it like that because I was thinking, well, actually, I’m not trying to fill somebody else’s shoes.
Helen Spencer [00:17:47]:
I’m just trying to walk in my own shoes. Yeah. It’s probably it’s probably what what what I’m thinking. Like, and I have the same conversation here with new team leaders. I often say, you know, just be yourself. You will have your own strengths. You have your own ways of doing doing things, and you’ve just got to be true to you. I’m a huge, I’m a huge fan of Brandy Brown, and I’m a you know? And that whole being vulnerable.
Helen Spencer [00:18:09]:
Yeah. You know, and I don’t know whether I find it easier to be vulnerable because I’m a female. I don’t know whether those two things are are are are linked are linked at all. They but I’m honest and and open, you know, and to say, look. Loweok. This is what’s important to to to me. This is who I am. You know? I’m too old now to try and be somebody else.
Helen Spencer [00:18:29]:
You know, you just have to to recognize, but also you’re sitting in the seat because in this case, you know, a a a group of partners at that time believed that that I was the right person to sit in the seat. So you’ve gotta take some confidence. Yes. That’s about like when you go for a job in in tourism. When somebody gives you the job, you’ve got to take some confidence from the fact that they knew what they were looking for and they saw something in you Yeah. And hold on
Nicky Lowe [00:18:53]:
to that. And as you’re talking, what strikes me is you have such a good level of kind of self awareness. Is that something you’ve always had? And I obviously, it develops over time anyway.
Helen Spencer [00:19:05]:
I don’t I don’t I don’t know. I I would say I’ve always had a coach, obviously, always for a long time. I have had a series a series of coaches. I have always encouraged feedback. Why should you always want the feedback, do you? Yeah. You know, I’ve always encouraged that feedback. You know, I have an amazing husband who is very good at giving me the feedback and afraid he will sometimes use is, I’m going to give you the feedback that you need, not necessarily the feedback that you want. It’s really well set up.
Helen Spencer [00:19:36]:
It’s really well set up. Or or even I will sometimes ask the question, okay. Is this the feedback that I need or a feedback that I want? So I think that self awareness just comes, I think, from opening yourself up and having people around you who will who who will challenge you. Equally, I think the self awareness is also surrounding yourself with people who I think you admire, who you respect, who you see something in them, and you have to be really honest with yourself and say, Julie, I’m really good at that, and I’d like to be as good as that. So I think there’s a I think there’s probably a bit of little bit of it, but maybe it comes back to the an imposter syndrome. I think one pastry syndrome is a positive to it because because I think most of you talk about imposter syndrome sometimes being quite negative. I think it can be positive, because I think what it can mean is you are constantly striving to be better.
Nicky Lowe [00:20:25]:
Yeah. Absolutely. You know that you’re not the finished product, and there’s always more to learn and evolve. And yeah. And it gives you the room to do that. Brilliant. So as a mother Mhmm. What has that experience been like? Because that’s one hell of a creative trajectory, really.
Nicky Lowe [00:20:43]:
Yes. I said they’re kind of then you as you said, when you joined here, your daughters were kind of Oh, They were
Helen Spencer [00:20:49]:
they were effectively, 1 of 5 there would have been. Amber was just 1, India would have been 5 at the time, so yes, Amber would India I think was just long ago, not long ago, not long ago to school, but just got to school.
Nicky Lowe [00:20:59]:
But also you said that they’d got some needs as well that you were kind of trying to kind of accommodate in your work and life as well. So would you mind sharing just what one journey’s been like?
Helen Spencer [00:21:10]:
Probably hard in reality. I don’t I don’t think anybody with, those 2 parts, but anything I can do with children will say that I should be a working parent is easy because it it isn’t. Yeah. I think that probably is that probably is the reality. I think the decision my husband and I took fairly on as far as the girls were concerned is we were going to do everything possible to give them a normal life, whatever normal for them looked looked like. So we probably haven’t accommodated massively, because I don’t think the world accommodates, and my girls are being partially deaf. So I don’t think the world accommodates massively. So I think it was all about giving them those coping coping mechanisms.
Helen Spencer [00:21:50]:
I think Eddrid and I have always managed it as a partnership, so what is amazing for the girls is they have a greater relation with their dad as they have with their mom. Brilliant. And so they have seen, you know, mom does some things and dad does some things, you know, and, you know, it’s never been about me doing it or already doing it. So I think we’ve shared that. I think the other part of it, and this is the only by my own approach, is we’ve always been very open as a family. There are some things that are nonnegotiable, so having dinner, for example, together in the evening was nonnegotiable. So even when they were at nursery, they would be sat after the end of nursery in a eye chair, and Edward and I would talk about our day, and that’s here they are now at 20 and due to gone to America at 24, but here we are all these years later, and we still have dinner together. And, you know, that has been the nonnegotiable part.
Helen Spencer [00:22:41]:
It can be late some evenings Yeah. But that’s nonnegotiable. So I’ve always been open, with them. I also, at times, have said to them, look. Here’s some opportunities. So particularly when you know, I I can remember a payment management partner that said, look. This opportunity mom has, but this is what it means for her. Can we as a family decide? God.
Helen Spencer [00:23:01]:
I love that. Is that right for us, the family? You know, equally when they were younger? You know, yes. Mom works. This is what it means. Sometimes what it means when they’re fairly young is they could have my daughters whenever they want. Yeah. Or they could come quiet, but they they you know? Or we have a nice holiday. Is that what you want? Alternatively, mom could reduce her hours, but this is what it would mean.
Helen Spencer [00:23:25]:
And then the girls have said, oh, no. It’s okay. Mom, we’re quite happy. Yeah. Because, you know, I don’t know about your children, but, effectively, and my all my friends, they have worked. So they’re friends of working moms, so it becomes the norm. You know? I think that holiday club, and they always went had holiday clubs. Yeah.
Helen Spencer [00:23:42]:
Yes. Yes. I would screech up at 6 o’clock after school club, and they’d be there in the bag and I’m like, oh, no. Sorry. But I’ve always involved the girls in my career in that in that way and being quite open about what I do. You know, obviously, I do have Edward has done has done the same, but they’ve been part of some of the decision making. The other flip side of it is I have learned to say no, and I think over the years, I’ve had to say no to the girls as much as I’ve had to say no to work sometimes. So, for example, I’m going to go to gymnastics, and they said, oh, we’d like to come 2 days a week.
Helen Spencer [00:24:15]:
And I said to India, do you wanna be an Olympic gymnast? Do you know? And I said, you’re not gonna become an Olympic gymnast, are you? No. Okay. So how about we don’t go on a Tuesday? And how about we just continue to go on a Saturday and fun? And the weekend, I you can do whatever you like, and I will take to swimming and gymnastics. But in the week, mom can’t always do that. Now there are things sports days, assembly. There are certain things that I would and I would put them in my diary, so that’s where I was going. But I think as a parent, and I guess in a in the kind of roles that I’ve had, there has had to be some compromise. Yeah.
Helen Spencer [00:24:52]:
And that compromise has been in both sides.
Nicky Lowe [00:24:56]:
And you mentioned that you love Brene Brown, and I always remember Brene Brown going that in her family, they had to decide very early on. Were they gonna be children centered? Were they gonna be parent centered, or were they gonna be family centered? And that really formed how they did their decision making because it was for the children. Everything was gonna benefit them, and everything else got sacrificed. But see, so actually, we’re gonna prioritize the parents and the children get sacrificed. And what they did was actually, how do we do what’s right for the family by having those conversations to say, mum and dad are maxed out with work this week, so you’re gonna miss gymnastics. You’re gonna miss that that’s right for the family in this moment. We’re we’re doing that, and it very sounds like you’re very family centric.
Helen Spencer [00:25:37]:
Yeah. And, you know, I I I can’t be nearly parent. I hope I’m not who on a on a Sunday evening has said, please, actually, nobody can be ill this week. Yeah. Yeah. Because there’s quite a lot going on. Yeah. You know, this, this clearly, when they are poorly and from parents of help, I think you have to have a support network as well, don’t you? Yeah.
Helen Spencer [00:25:56]:
And, of course, the chill yeah. The girls have always known, and I I asked the girls before I before I I was coming on this, was I always there? I think Amber said to me, when when you when when we needed you, mom, you were always you were always there, which actually is what you is actually what you what you need, don’t you? And and our children grow into adults, and I’ve always believed that effectively I should be a role model for the girls Yeah. As as well because, I want them to see it is possible to have, you know, a great marriage and a great family and a great career. There is just some compromise at different times that you have to make to to to to achieve it. And, and the girls are lovely now, and, you know, in in their own way, they will you know, and I I went into university. I was asking, meet some amazing people and some amazing role models, and I remember her saying to me, but mom, you’re one of my role models. And, actually, I thought, oh, that’s really sweet, isn’t it? You know? Because at times, your family get the worst part of you because they get the type part, don’t they? Or they get the slightly frazzled part, and sometimes work get the the the the the the the the not perfection, but they get the the the polished. That’s that’s what I’m looking for, the polished version, don’t they? Because you have to, I guess, internalize on your emotion at times at work, don’t you? Particularly when you’re in a senior position, people have a certain expectation of you, whereas you can be yourself at itself at home.
Helen Spencer [00:27:28]:
But, yes, I think it’s just a balance. You know, and sometimes you get it right and sometimes you get it wrong.
Nicky Lowe [00:27:35]:
And I’m imagining your girls have grown up to be independent because they’ve seen you be independent, and as you say, to be able to go, well, actually you’re my role model and inspiration, that is like the ultimate accolade. Me too. And to also say, yeah. We remember you being there when it mattered. Mhmm. Because ultimately, that’s incredibly, incredibly important.
Helen Spencer [00:27:57]:
Because guilt is an emotion we all have, Debbie. So I don’t know a working parent that doesn’t feel guilt. Yeah. And, you know, I have a bucket load of it, like most working moms have, but I think sometimes you’ve just got to be fair and say, did I did I do the best I could? And have I, through what I have done, provided some opportunities for the girls and have I been there when they needed me? I think I can tick those boxes.
Nicky Lowe [00:28:23]:
Yeah. And it sounds like you did a good job of keeping your guilt in check-in that you kept it functional, but you got rid of the dysfunctional. So the dysfunctional guilt would have been, oh, I should be taking twice a week to gymnastics, and you were like, no. That that really doesn’t work, and I’m okay with kind of as long as that’s not gonna be something you wanna pursue as a career path, yeah, that that’s okay to let that go. Yeah.
Helen Spencer [00:28:41]:
I think you said you wanted a bit of a little bit of gymnastics. Not quite sure what I would have done. Yeah. No. That’s okay. Okay. We might have to revisit this. I’m sure I would have made it work.
Helen Spencer [00:28:49]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nicky Lowe [00:28:51]:
And I’m I’m wondering, we were reflecting before we hit record how far kind of being a mother in the workplace has evolved over the last kind of 20 plus years, And have you always felt comfortable to kind of parent out loud and be that mother that says, actually, I have got a school play, and I’m going to it? Or has that evolved in terms of your confidence to do that over that?
Helen Spencer [00:29:13]:
Well, I think it’s evolved. You know, I I I will still reflect on those meetings I’ve sat in and thought, I’ve got to go and pick the girls up tonight, and I’ve got to be left by no later than 26. Yeah. And I probably still go to speed to get there on time. And watching the clock go round
Nicky Lowe [00:29:33]:
Yeah. We’ve all been there.
Helen Spencer [00:29:34]:
We’ve we’ve all been there, haven’t we, to be honest? Whereas I think it evolved from that to when Amber was at school, and what was really important to me is actually I took Amber to school to say, no. I’m not coming to one of our offices until 9:30 because I’m dropping Amber off first. Yeah. Now I don’t know whether does that come with seniority or does that come with confidence? I I don’t I don’t know. I would hope that, you know, effectively parents here would feel able to say, actually, you know, I do need to drop my my children off to school. That doesn’t mean we we have all of our meetings later because there is, again, there is some compromise. But I think, yes, I think it’s 2 fault. I think it’s a confidence.
Helen Spencer [00:30:17]:
I also think that just the working world has moved on massively in the last twin in the last 20 years. I mean, even maternity if you think of maternity provision, you know, when I had certainly certainly India, you know, 3 months, we I was back at work because I I think I can’t remember what it’s 6 or 80. I can’t remember what it was now, but, you know, it was a relatively short short time. There was no such thing really as flexible working. Yeah. I think I told you before we started. At the time, I I was pregnant with India. My manager said, oh, so shame you’re pregnant because, actually, we would have promoted you because she was leaving.
Helen Spencer [00:30:55]:
And I said, okay. No. That’s fine. I understand. Because That’s the norm at that time. Norm at that time, and I think there’s been massive, massive, developments, and and and progress as we as we as we as we said earlier.
Nicky Lowe [00:31:11]:
And you’d also mentioned that probably the the most judgment you’ve had probably been from other women, other moms. Yeah. And you mentioned that actually when you went back to work after 3 months, you had comments Yes. About that.
Helen Spencer [00:31:23]:
And comments around, you know, you should behave. You should be looking after your children. We have the same comments about what does that mean in terms of how much time you want to spend. And, you know, and, actually, I think, you know, parenting, yeah, as much as being being a mom, what’s right for one family isn’t right for another. It’s so personal. Yeah. It’s a person and I think often and I do think and I and I will still say this today. I think it’s very sad that I think in in today’s today’s world, I think some moms fight you know, if they want to come back full time, I think they find that quite difficult, not sometimes because of the the practicalities around it, but because of the other people’s views in terms of on the judgment the judgment around it.
Helen Spencer [00:32:05]:
And, you know, my my my my view has always been what’s right for one family. Is it right? Is it right for another? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because because I do think we are often very judgmental about other people’s decisions, and parenting, I think, is one of them. There’s a huge amount of shame
Nicky Lowe [00:32:24]:
that hangs around parenting. There’s
Helen Spencer [00:32:26]:
a huge a huge amount of a huge amount of shame, isn’t that? Yeah. You know, and, I think, as I said, we just need to do what’s right for us.
Nicky Lowe [00:32:36]:
And you mentioned there about the kind of the working parents here at w r, and I’m just wondering how has your background in HR, and so your own personal experiences, informed how you’ve created
Helen Spencer [00:32:46]:
the culture around that? What are
Nicky Lowe [00:32:48]:
the kind of things you do here? Yeah.
Helen Spencer [00:32:50]:
I mean, we have, you know, a lot of, sort of part time managers, directors who’ve had our 1st part time partner appointed, which seems it does seem quite slow in the process, and it probably is, you know, in in in reality. I think we are still working through how we balance what the individual want is with our our clients’ expectations. Yeah. The the one thing I would say is I think our clients’ expectations continue to grow, and we shouldn’t I think we we need to be aware of that. And what we’re trying to do is to balance the smart working approach that we have, which is as much about where you work as much as when you work. So, you know, we do ask in everyone’s in the office 3 days a week, and balancing that with effectively what our clients need. So I think we do have lots of part time working. I think I’ve I’ve mentioned, you know, we have the smart working.
Helen Spencer [00:33:45]:
I think we are getting better, but there’s still room to do around, particularly ladies have been on maternity leave when they come back into the organization. 12 months is a lot is a long time in business these days. So how are we almost helping them onboard back into back into the business? Yeah. I think it’s something that we’re we’re we’re becoming far more aware of, because there’s a I think there’s a very emotional piece that we need to support, particularly moms on, but also there’s a very practical things will have changed within the business. And I think that there can be a lot of assumptions made about what they’re coming back to, and it will be the same, and sometimes it isn’t. And it’s a emotionally, it’s a double whammy, isn’t it? Because not only they’re trying to get used to come back to work, they’re trying to get come back into something that’s quite different too.
Nicky Lowe [00:34:32]:
Absolutely. There’s I always talk about it being one of those vertical development situations where, like, if somebody’s promoted, it’s a vertical, like, their values, their identity may have shifted and kind of, you know, when somebody’s promoted into a known role, that’s a vertical development, but also parenthood is a, like, a massive vertical development opportunity. I think
Helen Spencer [00:34:52]:
maybe I do try to do that. I do try and listen out a little bit at the, but there’s sort of back some some of those that report directly to me who have also got family. So I try and listen out to, you know, if they need to drop off, and I try and make sure they say sometimes I’ll say in a meeting when they, they need to leave at a certain time, I try and make sure that they can get out of the meeting when they need to because I know what that feeling is like. It’s a horrible it’s a horrible feeling, isn’t it?
Nicky Lowe [00:35:17]:
And I think that to go with empathy just makes a huge amount of difference, and I imagine people feel safe to say to you, look, you know, this I need to do this and, yeah, how far that’s come. What are some of the other key lessons that you’ve learned around balancing kind of a a senior leadership role with motherhood? It sounds like you’ve said having that support network
Helen Spencer [00:35:39]:
is really important.
Nicky Lowe [00:35:41]:
Having those honest conversations with your family and internally Yes. At work. What what about relationships with colleagues or, managing your brand as kind of, I imagine, one of the few female leaders? I remember you telling me a story about when you turned up to go to a conference, and would you mind sharing that story?
Helen Spencer [00:36:04]:
Yeah. So I I I it’s a it’s a it’s a while back, but I was going to a a conference, which was it’s it’s 2 it was 2 two two nights 2 nights away. And the partner I was going going with, his children’s all adults sort of had all grown all grown up. And so I I came into work. I I was coming to a meeting couple of meetings here at Shoresby before I was getting in the car. And, coming in kind of just before 9 o’clock, their meeting was starting at 9 o’clock, and he was saying to me, you look a bit you look a bit stressed this morning. Are you okay? And I said, yes. I’m fine.
Helen Spencer [00:36:37]:
Yes. I’m fine. I said, I’ve just been getting ready, obviously, to go away, and he’s, oh, oh, okay. And I and I ruled off. I just so far this morning, I’ve got up. I have put I’ve put something to eat this evening in the in in in the slow cooker. I’ve made sure the fridge has got what they need in terms of the next 2 days. I’ve made sure all the girls’ school uniform is there, and I have done a drop off.
Helen Spencer [00:36:57]:
And I have tried to put my own bag, and I’m here. And he said, oh, no. I put my bag for me. Okay. And it’s So that might be my eye looks slightly stressed. And you your son sitting there looking very calm. Yeah. You know? Because he needs that, isn’t it? You you you you’re never you’re never off duty, are you? I mean, clearly, as the girls are older now, it it it’s it’s very different.
Helen Spencer [00:37:24]:
You know, but there are there were lots of things to arrange, lots of things to put in place to make sure some of those opportunities that I have had are possible, you know, as well, but perhaps not always our colleagues have the same. No.
Nicky Lowe [00:37:37]:
It’s not. Mental load, isn’t it? And also almost the unconscious bias. So if you’re you know, I’ve got a client who is the only female on the board and she’s the only default parent, so her husband works away and so she is the person that gets called from school and just the lack of understanding or appreciation, all that and stuff that she’s carrying. But she’s actually trying to hide because she doesn’t want to be any different or to be penalized or or, you know, felt sorry for in any way and just trying to hold that.
Helen Spencer [00:38:12]:
I think probably as a, you know, my reflection for me would be, I think as your children start to grow older, I know I’ve got 2 adults now effectively, and so those days seem a long a long long way away when actually, you know, you had nursery drop off, so you had sort of pickups. You know? Now I can go home largely when I need to because everybody in my house is independent. And I think sometimes it’s I I do have to kind of just remind myself actually what it was like.
Nicky Lowe [00:38:43]:
And I think that’s also a great reflection to go it’s a season in your It is. Parenting journey, but a season in your career that if you can navigate that then different kind of opportunities and challenges, I imagine, kind of come with a different season.
Helen Spencer [00:38:59]:
And I and I do try and and say to particularly some of our, particularly some of our sort of female leaders here, your career is 40 years. Your children are young for a relatively short space short space sometime in those 40 years. And so sometimes, actually, the right thing for you and for your families is if I use the word pause Yeah. What I mean by that is actually that you don’t need to kind of go for those promotions all of the time. You can just pause for a while. Yeah. You know, I became managing partner at 51. Yeah.
Helen Spencer [00:39:34]:
You know, before that, there’s lots of lots of other things that I that that that I did. And, you know, I think often we think we have to achieve so much early in our career, and if that happens, it’s fantastic. But, you know, lots of females, and you read more and more about this, you know, females are achieving amazing things in their forties and their fifties,
Nicky Lowe [00:39:54]:
aren’t they? Yeah. And it’s and just that powerful reflection of actually you feeling like you were dialing back your ambitions to take a part time role actually was the catalyst for your career direction. I was talking to a woman a couple of weeks ago who, she had a very senior job at Dyson, and she now works for another, company as a global, VP of marketing. And her reflection was at Dyson, they didn’t allow directors to work part time at the time. So when she came back after a second chance, she wanted to be part time working. So she effectively took a step down. And at the time, it felt, like, catastrophic to her career, but she was like, actually, what I learned in that role was a catalyst recruiting director that’s seen her achieve huge success. So not thinking about it so linear and that we’ve got to be constantly climbing.
Nicky Lowe [00:40:49]:
And I’m I’m assuming in that, it’s not accepting that, oh, actually, I’ve gotta lean out, and I’ve got
Helen Spencer [00:40:53]:
to No. No. No. Not at all.
Nicky Lowe [00:40:55]:
But not beat yourself up about decisions that are right for you in that moment.
Helen Spencer [00:40:59]:
And I think in an organization, certainly such as this, in professional services, we have lots of people at the same level, and I think that you have a certain what I call peer groups, and I think people often think their careers have to develop at the same pace, and the reality is they don’t. Now that’s not just purely about being a working mom. I think that’s just the reality. You know, it’s okay at times to say, look, this is right for me right now. This role is right for me right now. And, actually, I’m gonna just enjoy this role. I’m performing this role, and it is performing in the role. I think that actually gets you those next opportunities anyway.
Helen Spencer [00:41:36]:
So now I’m a I’m a great advocate of leaning in. I’m a great advocate of, it actually performing in in in in in the role. But equally, what I would say, we’ll go back to I work 4 days here. I think when you work part time, I think you are very focused. Yeah. Because you have to be, don’t you, to be honest? I think you have to be, and I think that you shouldn’t underestimate those other skills that you learn through balancing work and balancing home and commitments and trying to work part time and trying to achieve what you’re achieving in that, you know, in that time, that shouldn’t that shouldn’t be addressed that shouldn’t be addressed to me.
Nicky Lowe [00:42:11]:
Earlier that the ability to say no and Mhmm. That really establishing those firm boundaries Yes. So many people, I hear, you know, that was something that I had to learn. Otherwise, I’m being paid for, but I’m actually doing 5 and and that whole piece.
Helen Spencer [00:42:26]:
Mhmm. So I wonder in
Nicky Lowe [00:42:29]:
terms of the career highs and lows you had, what what might be a high and low that stick out for you? I
Helen Spencer [00:42:36]:
I’ll do the low first. I’d like to finish positively. I I think the low and I and when I reflect now, I think it was when I was in that stage where the girls were both very young and I was in an environment that really wasn’t family friendly, and I was putting them to bed and going back into the factories 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. So, I’m just feeling totally overwhelmed with actually just what I had to do. And I was sort of trying to be this this amazing employee and this amazing wife and this amazing mom, and there just was a bit left for me and all of in in all of all of that. And I think that I can remember being being a real low, actually. And I and and it wasn’t in the 1st 2, 3, 4 weeks I’d returned. It was a little bit it was further down it was further down the road when I suddenly realized, this kinda was it.
Helen Spencer [00:43:24]:
Yeah. It doesn’t get easier. Oh my god. It doesn’t it doesn’t get easier. It’s not me just transitioning into something. It wasn’t good. It wasn’t going to get it wasn’t going to get easier. And it wasn’t a low in the sense of, I I I didn’t want I felt a little bit like I was failing at something.
Helen Spencer [00:43:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. I felt that I perhaps would achieve what I could achieve. So I think that probably was what I would class as a low. It turned out not too big as clear clearly, we’ve already spoken about that. But, yeah, I think that would have been the that would have been a low.
Nicky Lowe [00:43:57]:
And I really appreciate who sharing that because I know I can completely relate to that, and I know so many of my listeners will be as well because often when women approach me for support, it’s not returning from maternity leave. It’s 2, 3, 4, maybe 5 years down the line when they’re going, the relentless responsibility, and nobody’s coming to rescue me from this. Like, I’ve got to find a way through it because there’s nobody’s gonna come and just make it easier. I’ve gotta find a way. So I really, really appreciate you sharing that.
Helen Spencer [00:44:26]:
And that’d be particularly if you get back into work and then you just continue as you were before. Yes. What everybody’s seeing is, oh, but she’s in control. It’s great, and she’s back, and she can do all of these things. And you’re trying you’re trying really hard on you to be like you were before, but you’re not. Yeah. But, you know, the pressures are not the same. Yeah.
Helen Spencer [00:44:46]:
So I think that was a low. I think the high probably has got to be become managing part. I think it’s got to be, hasn’t it, to be the to to to to to be honest, and it’s not the title. I think it’s the the opportunity to be a managing partner has has given me, the opportunity to, you know, I think develop a business, to the opportunity to to gain some amazing experience. You know, I still sit in my chair going, oh, no. You know, I think I met great people, but also being able to work with a great team here. I think that’s got
Nicky Lowe [00:45:22]:
to be the eye. Oh, I love that. Thank you. And so just very quickly, looking ahead, what are your what is your kind of plans or hopes for the future of WR Partners?
Helen Spencer [00:45:33]:
I’m hugely ambitious for us. So, you know, I would like to see the organization grow, and that’s about the opportunity I’ve always believed that growth will will will provide. I would love to see more female partners. You know, I would love, you know, to see, some of the people who have been here a long time, you know, continue to develop their careers in the way in which they would they would want to and they would and they and they would hope to. But I think probably also hope is that as an organization that we stay relevant for our clients
Nicky Lowe [00:46:08]:
Yeah.
Helen Spencer [00:46:09]:
That as we continue to develop the services that we provide to our clients, you know, we’re helping our clients realize their dreams and ambitions in the same way. That’s what we’re doing internally for our teams.
Nicky Lowe [00:46:20]:
Oh, I love that. And I have no doubt honestly, I have no doubt that under your leadership that the future is really bright. I know you’ve just gone through an acquisition, so you you are growing kind of literally and, you know, within your client base as well. So that’s lovely, you know, and I wish you every success with it. So if there’s just kind of one thing that you wanna leave anybody listening to this conversation with, what what would you want that
Helen Spencer [00:46:44]:
to be? And I would say be kind to yourself. I just felt like a big hug, Helen, because I think that’s
Nicky Lowe [00:46:50]:
and to come from somebody that’s achieved so much and is still so ambitious is recognising kind of that self compassion goes a long way along the way.
Helen Spencer [00:46:59]:
Yes just be just be kind. I think recognising that whatever you’re doing, you’re doing your best, and you can do no more. Fantastic.
Nicky Lowe [00:47:08]:
Well, thank you. Thank you. If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Wisdom For Working Mums, please share it on social media and with your friends and family. I’d love to connect with you too. So if you head over to wisdom for working moms dotco.uk, you’ll find a link on how to do this. And if you love the show and really want to support it, please go to Itunes, write a review, and subscribe. You’ll be helping another working mom find this resource too. Thanks so much for listening.
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