127 Dr Beth Mosley
Nicky Lowe [00:00:07]:
Hi. I’m Nicky Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom For Working Mums podcast show, where I share insights and interviews that support women To combine their family, work, and life in a more successful and sustainable way. How can I be the best parent to my children? That’s the question I think about a lot as a mother. I don’t know about you, but the responsibility of being a parent can often feel overwhelming. And that’s on a good day When one of my children is struggling or things aren’t going according to plan, it can feel impossible and quite frankly lonely. My wish for my children is to be happy and healthy. And I know I’m not alone in that wish. You will want that for your children too.
Nicky Lowe [00:00:55]:
I want to see them grow up into adulthood and be the best version of themselves. And my role in that feels so important, Like, as I said, at times overwhelming. The statistics on children’s mental health are alarming, and it’s not surprising with some of the stuff our children To navigate stuff that perhaps we didn’t have to in our own childhoods. So how do we support our children with their mental health? How do we raise them to be happy and healthy? That’s the biggest question as parents I think, and I believe that never before Drea. We face so many challenges for our children. I think this question is particularly heightened for working parents. You know, how do we show up from for children where we’re navigating the demands of our careers and our lives. This episode is for you if you’re worried about some of the things that your children are having to deal with in their lives.
Nicky Lowe [00:01:48]:
You’re worried about how it’s affecting them and you’re not sure how to be the best parent for them. And this episode is for you if you want to feel empowered on how to protect your children from life’s challenges, whilst also enabling them to manage the demands of their life. If our job is to safely support our children to adulthood, how do we do that when we’re faced with challenges? Maybe navigating friendship issues, Maybe navigating screen time, you know, how much is too much? You know, navigating big emotions or worry and stress. And that’s why I am absolutely delighted to be joined by doctor Beth Mosley, MBE. Doctor Beth is one of the UK’s most experienced and respected consultant clinical psychologist. And she’s she works with children, young people, and their families. And her expertise is based on cutting edge science and evidence based interventions developed over 20 years of working in the NHS, As well as Beth’s own experience as a single mother of 3 children. Beth was recognized in the 2022 New Year’s honors list with an MBA, the most excellent order of the British Empire, for her outstanding contributions to children’s mental health.
Nicky Lowe [00:03:02]:
Not only is Beth an exceptional leader in her field, She’s also the author of Happy Families, How to Protect and Support Your Child’s Mental Health, and I love this book. It takes an honest, Expert and accessible approach to mental health. It’s aimed at parents and carers and arms us with the tools we need to tackle anxiety, low mood and difficult behaviors in our children from ages 4 right up to 21. And I really love Beth’s honest approach in this book, Sharing insights into her own challenges as a parent. Even with the training and expertise she has, it’s relatable, it’s reassuring, as well as empowering. And this conversation with doctor Beth is honestly like the most warm, reassuring hug that we could have as parents. In this episode, she shares her own struggles as as a parent, how navigating a divorce It was a really unexpected challenge for her and what that’s thrown up in terms of her having to navigate her life as a working mum. I just know you’re going to love what Doctor Beth’s got to say, so I won’t keep you any longer.
Nicky Lowe [00:04:11]:
Let’s dive in and welcome her. So welcome, Doctor. Beth. Thank you for joining me. I cannot wait to dive into this conversation because I know it’s so important. And so many people are going to get so much benefit from this. So thank you for joining me.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:04:26]:
Thank you. Really glad to be here today.
Nicky Lowe [00:04:30]:
So for those that don’t yet know about you and your incredible wealth of experience, Could you give us an insight into who you are, the journey you’ve been on to do the really important work that you’re now doing?
Dr Beth Mosley [00:04:46]:
So I guess my my starting point would be my childhood wasn’t easy. And I think that’s just so important as we’re all grown ups in this world to just pay homage almost to some of the Experiences and challenges we might have had in our early life, which really inform who we are now and how some of those challenges can actually Give us a platform, really, in adulthood, to grow and be more than we ever dreamed of. I definitely think that’s true for my story. I never dreamed that I’d actually be where I am right now. So, Yeah. My childhood wasn’t easy. I’m I’m the eldest of 4. My parents happy when they were in the in, I suppose, we would describe now.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:05:33]:
Now these days, I would say they’re really young, so my mom was just 21. And I suppose they sort of grew up, as they brought us children up, and they have us in all 4 of us in quick succession. And I guess that’s one of the things that I I I had my 1st child when I was 29, which is sort of almost a decade older than when my mom had HRSA, a first child me. And I think I still did so I’ve grown up with my children, and I think my parents did an incredible job of managing some of the challenges They faced in their life with quite a lot of disadvantage to help us children all be dreamers really. And My dad was a fantastic storyteller, and I think that’s really stuck with me. I was bullied quite a lot at school, because my parents were Super religious, actually, and they didn’t help because they, they kind of meant that I I stood out as being quite different. And I felt quite different, felt Quite annoying. But the storytelling part of my brain sort of always helped me dream and and and think of wanting more from life than what was right in front of me right now.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:06:46]:
And so I guess based on that, when I did my studies at school, I was just the average student, but I really wanted to go to university 1st place in my family to go to uni. And I was really intrigued by this word psychology. We didn’t study that I’m in high school at that point in time, and I was lucky enough that in those days, tuition fees were covered. So even though I was coming from quite a financially disadvantaged family, I could go to uni. And I just absolutely discovered my Natural aptitude and love for psychology is thinking and understanding others, and I just really flew. So I think I kind of was a bit of an ugly duckling really, if you know what I mean. And I became I became a swan in that but, In that period of my life, and I just discovered, a bit like when I started writing the book, Happy Families. Oh my goodness.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:07:39]:
I can just do this without it being too much of a struggle. I I just love it. It was a take, you know, a duck to water kind of thing. And From now, I just really had a passion to to working with families and young people. And I did a PhD in research, and I just thought, you know what? I don’t wanna be working So separate from peoples, on the ground who are struggling on a daily basis. And then I went on and did my clinical doctorate training, which is highly competitive, really difficult to get into, and did that and just had my first Child in my last year of of doing that, which, again, was on the go home and in those days, and and just basically found my love for working with children and families who are really struggling in their life, dealing with extraordinarily difficult situations and being able to support and help them through those, and them coming to me In such distress and shame, a lot of shame around the situation they might be in as a family, and then Us being able to come together and find a way through that, and then being able to say goodbye to families on a completely different trajectory Where they’re feeling hope and optimism about the future, and also a sense that the struggles that they and their children have faced are now going to prepare them for further struggles in life because they’ve learned some really important tools, through working with me, which they can continue to use as they go on in life. So yeah, I’ve worked in the NHS for more than 2 decades, Pretty much tirelessly, to to do that whilst, I guess, getting divorced, lots Some things happening in my own personal life, which are challenging and scary, and bringing up 3 children as a single parent, For the last sort of 7 years, it is now, whilst working full time and and some, yeah, it’s It’s been it’s been really challenging, but rewarding. And I guess what it’s meant is as a therapist, as a clinician, I really understand So much more because of my own challenges, just how difficult it can be to manage life and bringing up children.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:10:07]:
So I’m coming from a place of, you know, really being able to get it, which I think is so helpful When you’re in a place where you’re feeling very isolated and alone and and scared of what’s going on in your life.
Nicky Lowe [00:10:23]:
Massively. And I really thank you for kind of taking us on that journey because it really gives people a sense of of who you are and what brings you here. And I think that really comes through in your book about that you’re in the trenches With us as as parents, and you haven’t got it all figured out, and life, it isn’t about kind of gliding effortlessly Lead Through Life. It’s about actually when we hit those bumps in the road, do we feel resourced to support our children? And, yeah, I think before we hit record, I said how much I’d loved your book because it was so relatable and you, inner voice, that inner, you find a place to bring out the, the stuff that we might be keeping in around the shame, or the guilt, for the unease, and you’ve done it so beautifully. I can I can you know, the storytelling really comes through in your book, so thank you? In in Tanji, obviously, your work is focused on supporting children’s mental health needs. We hear a lot about mental health in the press and in the media. I was only listening this morning to, I can’t remember. The guy’s name is on Capitol Radio.
Nicky Lowe [00:11:37]:
The young lad who has written an open letter to to all out there writing, writing the open letter The MPs to say, look, we are not doing enough in this area. So it’s a term that people will often kind of be familiar with. But I wondered if you could just share, Ashish. What do you mean by mental health and the difference between mental health and perhaps mental ill health?
Dr Beth Mosley [00:12:00]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it it is It is a bit confusing, isn’t it? And I think we’ve become more familiar with the term mental health in in recent years, and there’s hopefully less stigma around it. But I guess the the key thing about mental health is it’s something we all have. Just like health, we all have health. And it’s quite helpful to think about it as being a bit of, like, being on a spectrum, so being on a line with good mental health at one end and poor mental health at the other. And really what we mean by mental health is it’s essentially a person’s emotional, psychological, and social well-being So how they’re thinking, how they’re feeling, and how they’re functioning, so how they’re getting on in life, how they’re able to work, are they able to go to school, are they able to connect, and relate with other people. And it’s also our ability to cope with the stresses in our lives because we’re all constantly experiencing stresses, and it’s not just the absence of illness, and it isn’t fixed.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:13:04]:
It’s something we’re and it isn’t something we’re born with. It is something that fluctuates depending on what’s happening in our lives, and I think that’s the key important thing. And as we look at the increase of mental health need in young people that we’re seeing and actually in adults 2. The question we should be asking is what’s happening in our children’s lives, in our current world and way of Living that is having such a huge impact on people’s mental health, how good they’re feeling about themselves, how well they’re coping with the stresses that they’re experiencing in their lives. And I guess that’s different from mental illness. So Obviously, when I’m meeting with families, they’re really asking that question. You know, is this thing I’m seeing in my child, is this anxiety, or is this low mood Something that I need to worry about in terms of is it some is it a mental illness, Or is this a kind of normal variation of of what a child might experience in their life, you know, based on the situational experiences they’re having? I guess with mental illness, what we’re talking out about is it it explains a range of mental disorders that affect person’s mood thinking and behavior, so similar to mental health, but it’s usually associated really high levels of distress I have difficulties with functioning across the across your life. So really not being able to do those things you’d expect a person should or could be able to do, so not maybe getting to school at all or or really Hi.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:14:42]:
Hi. Struggling with attending school, struggling with learning when when in school, perhaps not engaging in family events. And If you’re a parent on this call who’s seen your young person really struggle with low mood or anxiety to the point that they are not leaving their bedroom, they’re not doing the things that they used to enjoy doing. And this has been going on for a long time. It’s not just something that’s happened in a week where they’ve fallen out with a friend or perhaps lost Someone really dear to them, but it’s actually going on and it’s quite persistent over a period of time. That’s when we’d be asking questions about, Is this going into that territory where you need more support and help beyond what you can offer them as a parent or the the the kind of school support that might be available, is this something that could be, what we might call a mental health disorder or a mental illness? Does Does that make sense?
Nicky Lowe [00:15:38]:
Absolutely. And I really appreciate you giving that context because I think often we use these terms interchangeably. I think it’s just that recognizing that we all have that mental health and where day to day, moment to moment we might move across it and when as parents. Because I think we we do worry about our children anyway, but more so in in kind of our modern world about, you know, what is normal and The work that you’re doing to help parents navigate, that is so important. So I’m, I, I’m kind of curious because as you say, you’ve got an incredibly full life with, You know, amazing work that you’re doing in the NHS, which I imagine is incredibly demanding in its full time. You’re you’re a mom to 3 children, solo parenting. So what was the catalyst to writing a book? Because the energy and time that takes, I’m wondering what kind of sparked you to to wanna make that commitment to do it.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:16:32]:
You know, it’s so funny, I just had this moment in my kitchen where I was actually listening to a podcast, where someone was explaining something really complicated in a way that was just so relatable and easy. And I just thought, you know what, I’ve never in my career seen such a high level of demand of young People needing mental health support. Young people are waiting, on average, 10 years. It’s an average of 10 years before a child gets an evidence based treatment Difficulty in their mental health. So I’m in the NHS seeing the frustration of families who are having to wait more than a year to even get that first It’s assessment session with a person, and I just thought, you know what? I think I can write a book where I just give parents what they need to know in a really relate or easy way that makes sense means that whether their child is struggling or not, the book is relevant because it will kind of give them An understanding of what is true for all of us, what builds good mental health, make sense of when things you know, everyone faces challenges, things go wrong, you know, that’s life. We all experience losses, we might have very individual needs based on neurodevelopmental diversity, for example, And it’s just about really just having a handbook, which just sets this all out and gives parents. The tools, the understanding, and the tools, the tools I teach and and do do with families in my sessions. And Families are always saying to me, and have over the years, you need to put this in a book, Beth, you know, because then we wouldn’t wouldn’t be here today.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:18:08]:
That could have avoided us being here today. And and I just I just went to Waterstones, actually, and I thought, is this book out there? And I looked at the bookcases all in the same day. I looked at the bookcase, and I just said, There isn’t this book here, and despite the fact that we’re seeing such a high level of of of need, 1 in 6 young people presenting with a mental health disorder, Not with mental health difficulties. So, you know, 2 thirds of young people are struggling with anxiety. So I just thought, this is Crazy. This book isn’t out there. And I just, you know, came home, wrote a book proposal, and I cannot believe it, but it got picked up so quickly by Publishers, I had no idea about the publishing world. I just really believed that I could do it because I wanted it to be as inaccessible.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:18:54]:
I know from my parent workshop program, What parents love the most about that is me being honest about how hard I find it as a parent. I’ll never forget. I ran this parent workshop, it was before COVID, and I I was having a really difficult week with my daughter. And I just stood up there and I just said, look, This is how you should do it, but this is actually what I do and how I get it wrong. And and I I the whole hour presentation, I was just Giving them the stories of my week, basically, and then telling them about, you know, how I could have done it differently or what might have been going on for me, what might have been going on for my daughter at the end. This person stood up with tears in her eyes and said, thank you Beth so much, because if you were struggling as a clinical psychologist with all this experience knowledge with this task of parenthood, then I just automatically feel so much better about the challenges I face. And I do think people come to these things with that fear of feeling guilty because they’re already feeling guilty, being told what they kind of aren’t getting right. And I just Found if I was honest about how tough this stuff is in reality and how often I get it wrong, then parents relief and just think it isn’t about being perfect.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:20:09]:
It’s about learning and growing alongside your child and being open minded enough to try some new stuff out, Hi. Accept it might not always go to plan, and, like, forgive yourself for that. And it just and that’s I thought I needed to put in my book. You know? This is it. I’m getting it wrong every day, but that doesn’t mean to say my kids aren’t gonna be okay at the end of it. You know? So so yeah. I know. Yeah.
Nicky Lowe [00:20:34]:
And that came I mean, like, one of the stories from the book that really struck me as I was reading it, you You kinda give a couple of paragraphs about taking your daughter swimming. And I I think she was 13 at the time, and she was just like, mom, mom, I want my phone. I’m missing my phone. And the story, I don’t know if you can share a little bit. And I was just like, oh my god. That is so relatable, and about what was going on for you as somebody with your phone, and
Dr Beth Mosley [00:20:59]:
yeah. I just love that. Yeah. Yeah. So it was it was literally, you know, I was at the pool. My daughter’s like, mom, I’ve just got the feeling someone’s messaged me.
Nicky Lowe [00:21:07]:
I just know it. I’ve got the feeling.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:21:09]:
I was like, nope. Just, you know, don’t be silly. And in my head, I’m thinking about my work emails On my phone, I just need to be tracking what’s going on. If I don’t know if there’s something going on at work, I need to be on top of them. And it was just like If I could I could totally relate to that feeling she had, and it was like I just we I was like, right, we’ve gotta get in that pool. We’ve gotta Jump in that pool and escape this kind of world that we’re in where we’re constantly preoccupied With something we should be doing, could be doing, that someone else is doing that we’re scared we’re not doing. And, I mean, social media has is an amazing tool, and young people really value it, But it also is such a challenging, thing because it’s it’s constantly making you aware of Some of the stuff that you’re not doing quite well enough, isn’t it? Or, you know, you’re feeling like you’re not achieving, or and it’s for me as a person who’s new to Writing a book, and I don’t have a social media profile. And a big part of being successful in this world is having a big social media profile.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:22:11]:
And it’s like, Yeah. I’ve got 200 followers at the moment on Instagram, which I had 0, like, 3 months ago. And I’m like, I’m such a fail at this. I I can’t do this, and and I can feel the pressure that my daughter experiences with trying to kind of Be seen on on social media. To be liked on social media, to get those likes is so addictive, And it’s really, really hard to step back from it and and believe it doesn’t define you as a person. So, yeah, it’s it’s And it’s that Ellen roadshow you bring is there.
Nicky Lowe [00:22:46]:
And I think that’s what I love in the book is that almost dual process about, actually, this what could be going on for For our children, but actually this is what gets triggered in us. And you’ve you know, part of the book you talk about, you know, screen time and what is a healthy amount of screen time. And I loved you put a sentence, and I was like, oh my god. That just represents my experience that as a working mum, often I use screen time for my children Hi. To keep them entertained while I’ve got work to do, or to stop them squabbling and and getting upset with each other. So kind of use it as a babysitter, but then Hate that I’m doing that because I know that screen time is not healthy for them, and and you speak to all that in your book in that such a brilliant way. And I I just So appreciated it.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:23:29]:
Yeah. Because I think we have to be realistic, you know, and and, yeah, I completely rely on there, because I work a lot of hours, and, and you kind of feel like your kid’s in their rooms, safe, occupied. And then as soon as you drop what you’re doing, you were like, right, kids. Come on then. And they’re all like, what? I’m not going down this. I’m right into it. And you kind of end up with a terrible thing. You think, I’m available now.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:23:55]:
Come on, everybody. Let’s do something. And they’re all Not remotely interested. And you just feel you just, yeah, you just feel in this massive double bind. And then I sometimes end up Going back to my laptop and doing a bit more work, thinking they’re all happy and fun without me. And I think that’s one of the things I’ve learned actually is, You know, I think there’s a lot of pressure on us as parents, like, now I’m ready to do something, you know, now I’m ready to engage in a really Purposeful, meaningful activity. And actually what I’ve learned as a working parent is you’re exhausted at the end of the day, and often your children are too. And the biggest, most important thing I do every day with my 10 year old, for him, is we and I did it with my older children too, is we watch for about 20 minutes an episode of something he really enjoys, but I can You also kind of enjoy too, so I’m not pretending that I’m interested, if that makes sense.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:24:55]:
And so, I mean, at the moment watching Batista Goldactica, would you believe it? But, actually, I’ve really got into it, and we both have turned this into a daily ritual. And in those 20 minutes, we’re both just together on the sofa, Might have a little snack to make it, you know, more sort of nice sometimes. And in those 20 minutes, I just feel so connected, and I can really relax switch off, and it’s those 20 minutes that my son will bring up what’s bothering him. He will just start to say, and we end up having Pause it in the end because I’m, like, we’re all or sometimes I’ll be, like, we’re missing a really important and and it’s in those 20 minutes that it comes out what’s going on, and it’s I’m a bit more relaxed, and I’m a bit more able to, you know, connect to that and and explore that without because often our children ask us Well, tell us about things right when we’re in the middle of getting out the door, we’re in the middle of making dinner, and we’re kind of in our own headspace, aren’t, when we can’t properly Pay attention. And, you know, that just is the tiny, little, magical thing that has worked with me. I mean, I watched Stranger Things 3 times because I watched it with my eldest son And then my daughter, who’s now 14, when and then I’ve watched it now with my 10 year old, and we’re waiting for the next season to come out. And, you know, it just anchored our day because I’m acknowledging that I don’t actually have the capacity to do some amazing activity. I just need to just to kind of sit sit still and, and be present really, and sort of be swished away from the chaos of my own world and my own thoughts because I get I’m so immersed in my work, and it’s really addicting.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:26:28]:
It’s hard to transition from being in that work zone where your brain is working in a particular away to being a mom where and often I transition into, right now we’ve got to get everything sorted, we’ve got to get dinner done, we’ve got to get cleared up, we’ve got to get everybody And you’re just on a mission, aren’t you, to think, right, when I get them all in bed, I’ll finally be able to have a glass of wine and relax. And then I I’ve spent my whole of parenthood, and I’ve had to really put myself in check on this. And then they’re asleep and and you’re feeling guilty. Why did I just rush through the day? Why didn’t I listen to them properly? You know, as soon as they’re asleep, you’re kinda like the most wonderful children in the world. While they’re awake, you’re like, just like it’s kind of like trying to shepherd them into the tasks of the day, I suppose I’ve learned really to let go a little bit, and it’s easier to do that as your children get older, I think, because you’re less on that strict routine to get them to sleep by a certain time so you can then clear up. But I think, Yeah. Just those little moments, actually, with all of my children have given them the little that special precious time with me. And for my children, that seems to just be enough, actually.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:27:41]:
I mean, it might be different for other children. It might be more than that. But yeah, and it I look forward to it now every day, I really do, and my son knows that. Like, he knows I can’t wait for that to start galactic to come up 20 minutes to half an hour of just Letting go of the day and not thinking about anything other than being with him and getting absorbed in the story.
Nicky Lowe [00:28:02]:
I love that. And that’s such an accessible tip, I think. So you’ve already alluded to some of this, but what are some of the key challenges you hear in your practice and when working with parents, particularly working parents and and their children.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:28:18]:
I think, you know, We’re all coming to parenthood not as a blank canvas. We’ve all had our own experiences in our childhood. There are some things that we want to give our children that are different from our experiences, there are some things that we may want to repeat and give them. And so I think when when we’re facing the challenges of life, the unexpected events happen, I never dreamed I’d get divorced, you know? I never dreamed that a lot of the things that happened in my life would happen to me, and they do, they happen to each of us. And as we navigate those things, and they happen to our children too, I think it’s really frightening as a parent to be Because in the moment that you’re seeing your child struggling, you’re panicking not just about the struggle in the moment, but you’re panicking about what it means for the future for your child. In this moment my daughter’s being so difficult, so rude, so obnoxious. What is she going to do next to manage her emotions? Is she going to do something that’s going to hurt herself? And then what does this mean about her Future. How is she gonna cope with being an adult? Will she be able to, you know, get a job and relate to other people without going through the roof? You know? And and I think you’re always rushing to, what does this mean for the future with your children? And I think most families I meet with and most young people On negotiating, navigating, dealing with what’s happening in the here and now, what’s happened in their lives which was unexpected or traumatic, so The loss of event, conflict, you know, experiences that they weren’t expecting to happen, but have happened, And the natural emotional fallout that comes from that, you know, emotions are So huge in rain, darling.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:30:07]:
We have joy, we have excitement, and we have deep sadness and grief, And we have fear, and we have anxiety. We’re trying to help our children learn to Tune in to what those emotions mean about what’s going on in their life. And a lot of the time people are coming to me because they’re so Worried about things that they deeply care about to the point at which the worry is actually. Jeopardizing the theme they care about. So a really good example is children who are really struggling to go to school because they’re so anxious. And what they’re anxious about is friendships and relationships and doing well and learning. And their anxiety about those things, which are so important, they mean that they can’t get to school and they can’t develop the relationships and they aren’t engaging with learning. And so the anxiety has taken so much control of their life, that actually it’s become the boss of them.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:31:07]:
And often the work that I’m doing with young people is helping Them understand that the thing that they’re most afraid of is happening because of the anxiety rather than because of of themselves as a as a young person, and it’s helping them be brave enough to, I guess, believe in They can do something that they feel is completely undoable that in all probability that the thing that they’re most worried about is unlikely to happen. And unless Say try to do it, or do something along those lines, and they’re kind of brave enough, courageous enough, they’re not going to discover that they could have coped with that thing, that it wouldn’t have been as bad as they thought it was going to be. And so a lot of the work with families is about fear, I think, fear of the unknown, fear of the future, fear about what is going on for my child. I can’t understand it. Sandra I can’t quite relate to. I can’t reach them, and I don’t know what to do. And I’m worried that what I might do could make things worse. And I think most parents, if I’m honest, come afraid that something they’ve done has led to the the the problem That they’ve got, you know, that they’ve somehow damaged their children, that they’ve somehow contributed to the problem.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:32:24]:
And I think that’s something we all carry around with us all of the time, and, you know, I’m always kind of saying the wrong thing, you know, always in a situation where, you know, you you’re emotionally overwhelmed in that moment, and you do tell your child or shout at them or, you know, and you kinda go, oh, no. I just wish I hadn’t done that. No. You know, I don’t know if you should get with my daughter. Pushed my Yep. They when my youngest was 9 months old, she pushed him and he pushed her into a pit of granite stones, And there was a massive hole in his head when I pulled him back up, and I said, what have you done? You know? And I was driving to a and e just Frantically afraid that he was gonna be have a brain injury, but also my daughter’s face is emblazoned on my mind that If he did have a brain injury, I’ve said to her, what have you done? And she’s gonna have to live with that for the rest of her life. And these are this is what Hi. It happens in parent mode, isn’t it? You, in the moment, are overwhelmed by your own emotions, and you can’t, you know, you can’t that just it’s just unavoidable sometimes.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:33:29]:
So I think it’s that’s the challenge, it’s really coping with your own emotional response to the most precious thing in front of you right now And knowing how to support your child or or when to get help and when to reach out, is is, I guess, what most people on that 1st day of meeting me on are most worried about.
Nicky Lowe [00:33:50]:
Yeah. And I think so beautifully put because I had never anticipated how triggering motherhood would be on so many levels, as you say, because we’re not a blank canvas And we’re bringing our own stuff. And I I actually before we joined this podcast, I, I had a conversation with with one of my friends, and We were just kind of reflecting her her daughter, who’s my goddaughter. Her father, unfortunately, took his own life when she was 3. She’s now coming up to 13. And I was only just saying to her, I was like, you know, you have raised such an amazing young woman, you know, to navigate what you’ve had to navigate. And we were we were just reflecting on, You know, the triggers of that stuff because you’re, you know, you’re almost looking for for it to to manifest. And then if there are certain behaviors, how People are judging you as a parent.
Nicky Lowe [00:34:40]:
So if your, you know, if your child does have an emotional outburst, it’s almost like, you know, The judgment we put on ourselves about how will other people see me react to this? What does this say about me as a parent? And so that’s layered into all this as well. So you wanna be there and support your child, but then it’s triggering your own sense of, Values and beliefs and navigating all that simultaneously so hard.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:35:07]:
And I think We’re in a sort of society where we’re not really we’re struggling to trust ourselves as parents, trust our gut instinct because I think We’re almost becoming so dependent on experts, aren’t we, to to kind of give us the right answer? And so many times, there isn’t a right answer. And I think one of the things that’s really helped me as a parent, is that understanding that When we’re feeling difficult feelings, they’re telling us something important about what’s going on in our world. And if we try and ignore or block them out altogether, We’re not able to tune into that, make sense of what that what that might be, and then think about what we might need to do next To honor the thing that we’re struggling with, and I think I give a a really nice example of this in the book from my daughter, This dad, who met is met a new partner, and they were having their 1st baby. And It was a bit of a shock to me, to be honest. I wasn’t expecting. I hadn’t even considered when we got divorced that my my ex husband might Actually, meet someone else and have more children. I just haven’t even thought considered it. And, so I was really struggling with this myself as a parent.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:36:29]:
I found my daughter crying in bed, you know, 1 night. And I was, like, we could go into bed next to her. And we’re at that age when she you tell, she’s 9. And So what’s up? And she’s, like, I’m really worried about daddy having a new baby, so stop loving me. I’m not gonna see him as much. And And, you know, that was exactly what I was worried about, you know, in my rational kind of emotional mind. Amber, I had to put that aside because I actually, you know, I didn’t want my daughter to be afraid of this new chapter in life, which She actually brings lots of wonderful things, and it has, you know, it really has. She’s got these beautiful and I’ve just had this another sibling since then, another step Sibling, 2 beautiful little brothers who she loves more than anything, and I love her.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:37:17]:
But in that moment, But the fear of losing her dad was driving her anxiety and worry, and she was like, I don’t wanna see dad this weekend. And, Anyway, just by me sitting aside and tuning into that and just being with her, we were able to explore what those sad and Scared feelings were telling her about what’s most important to her, her love from her dad, her time with her dad. And so we were then, from that, able to think about, well, what We do to let your dad know that. So he doesn’t unintentionally, by accident, reinforce that fear and actually worked out she needed more time with him, not less. And she also we worked out based on previous, you know, experiences of new people coming into your life that you can grow more love, that, you know, you only don’t have only so much love, but, you know, these are things I have no control over. I wasn’t sure Exactly what would happen next and how it would be, but it’s kind of helping your children, as well as yourself tune into, You know, rather than just going, no, it will be okay, you know, yeah, because it’s it’s invalidated and, yeah, It’s not honoring your your child’s world and and their deep kind of emotional world where they’re trying to make sense of what’s important to them. Quite often the things we get most worried about are the things that are most important to us. They’re our values are being jeopardised in some way, when we’re raging or We’re gaining this stress, and then we can if we can find a way of tuning into that or supporting someone else Tune in to that.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:38:53]:
We can often find some of the ways that we can do things that will take us back towards what’s important to us rather than by Doing things that made us your way.
Nicky Lowe [00:39:07]:
And I love that story. Thank you for sharing it. And I One of my reflections as you were saying it is how well you were able to regulate yourself in that moment with your daughter. And I wondered if you got any tips for parents if, You know, if they are feeling emotionally triggered to be able to connect in that moment and, and manage their own internal experience.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:39:30]:
I think I was lucky because it was dark and I was lying down in her bed next to her, and I so I was in a place where I could take a great, big, deep breath. And I wasn’t it was dark, you know? She couldn’t see me, I wasn’t I was just, like, able to just Breathe and just step sort of step myself aside my own feelings, just put them to the side. And it’s often much more difficult to do that when we’re in the midst of a busy day, and I often talk about creating a pause between the moment that we’re being triggered and what we do next, and and actually a lot of what I do with young people is help them get better at noticing see the early warning signs that they’re being triggered so that they can kind of take a little bit of control themselves and say, you know what, I can set So I can move to another room, I can take a deep breath, I can, you know, visualize something that is going to get me through to the end of the day So that you’re just creating, like, it doesn’t need to be a massive pause, but you’re just creating a big enough pause to help you not Rush into that automatic response which can then dysregulate you and the situation further, And then the problem is you’re left with feeling so guilty. I mean, I had this at the weekend with my son, I just dropped him off at university It’s it’s weekend. And I was so overwhelmed with emotion the night before, I ended up falling apart and and having a massive Go at my daughter who was being really, really difficult and sort of destroying our last evening, and I couldn’t, I just was so This moment was so precious to me. I couldn’t create pause, I just couldn’t do it. And so I think what I had to do was then, When I was feeling more regulated and calm is come back to her and have a conversation, and apologize, and own it. Own that, yeah, You were really upsetting me because of your behavior, and I really should have not Exploded in the way I did, and I’m deeply sorry for that.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:41:43]:
And here’s how we can think about why that happened And what was so important to me? What was going on for you? You were feeling like it’s all about your brother, and you don’t like that feeling. And so it was a really good opportunity, even though I’d messed up, to get it wrong. And then we could think about the day Where we’re actually dropping him off at university together. And, you know, doing that as a single parent because my ex husband wasn’t there is Such a big moment, you know, saying goodbye to your 18 year old. And and and actually that day, we got it right, the night before we got it wrong. But that day, we both got it right, my daughter and I. And then I could thank her for that and acknowledge that took a lot from her. So I think it’s about create the pause, learn to notice and regulate yourself if you can just with a deep breath, just for stepping away.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:42:33]:
And then if you don’t manage that, just think about the the kind of opportunity for repair once you are in a calmer place and you’ve got that perspective, because What it teaches your children is that there’s no shame in saying sorry. There’s no shame in acknowledging what you got wrong, and that if you do mess up, You can actually get take something good from that, you can learn from that, and you can, you can reconnect and Build that stronger relationship so that repair can actually help your relationship grow and develop, and and think about avoiding the same scenario happening again. So sometimes those scenarios give us that opportunity to grow Julie, in developing our relationships. And I think that’s my my approach now is things are going wrong. Things are really difficult. What can I learn from this? What can I take from this? So that next time, we can do something slightly different, so I can avoid this situation in the future, whatever It might be, rather than focusing on ‘I’ve really messed up’ here or I’m so annoyed that this has happened to me’, is thinking about, okay. That’s good. That’s fine that you’ve got all those feelings.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:43:47]:
It’s natural to have all those feelings. But don’t get Paralyzed by the feelings and sucked into like a downward spiral of, you know, every, I’m so useless, everything’s so terrible in my life, Move towards thinking, well, what does this tell me about what’s important to me, and what we what I can learn about life, you know, What how to do this differently next time, how to avoid being in the same situation again. And then it kind of takes the the power out of Worrying about things going wrong, you know, it’s it’s a strange thing. Really, you can train yourself to see things going wrong as opportunities For things to be different.
Nicky Lowe [00:44:26]:
Such a powerful reframe. And I’m just thinking that this season in my life, I’m noticing the perimenopausal season of my life. There’s probably more rupture than I’m have ever been used to, and that rupture repair. And you’re absolutely It’s that you’re right because the repair piece when I have ruptured, my relationship with my children is so beautiful and Can role model when I do it well? How, as you say, you don’t get caught up in that shame storm of, oh god, I’m a terrible person. It’s like, yeah, I made a mistake and I’m gonna make amends for it and then that connection that it can build.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:45:01]:
Definitely. And if you think about all the pressure on our children in their daily life, especially once they’re online, to be getting everything right, you know. So the culture we live in is very orientated around, you know, getting things right, and avoiding getting things wrong. And it’s almost like we have to kind of counteract that really, in our family life. If we if we kind of get Caught up with that too. I mean, what are our the amount of pressure it creates for us, for them is is massive. So the value of The value in in making mistakes and getting it wrong and the opportunity for learning and growth, I think, is just such an important thing we can do for ourselves, And, naturally, then we’re doing it for our children.
Nicky Lowe [00:45:47]:
Yeah. And I love that. And, oh my god. There’s so many avenues that we could go into, and I’m really conscious of time for us, so it might be we need to get you back on doctor Beth and kind of go down into some of the specific tools and strategies. But I I just wonder, you know, from your experience, as a single mom and also working with with working parents to support them and and their children’s mental health, What might be some some of your your top tips, I suppose? You’ve already shared some of these about just holding compassion for yourself and that repair, Kept creating moments of connection, like those 20 minutes of sitting down, you know, with having a program where you can just just be present. Are there any other tips that you would recommend?
Dr Beth Mosley [00:46:32]:
I guess, there’s A big part of parenthood, I think, is all about learning what to hold on to and what to let go of. And I guess I One of the things that’s enabled me to juggle the demands of of working and, Parenthood is having, like investing in the cheerleaders in my life. You know, it does Take a village to raise a child. And I think our culture is very much based on the individual responsibility of parents on bringing up children. And I think if you’ve ever and I have to take all my children to nursery or preschool, when they were little because I went back to work when I ran a 1 year old. And I just remember pain paralyzed by guilt that part of me actually wanted to go back I can build back the identity of my life. But the other part of me wanted to be the perfect mom and parent available to my children. And, you know, I really kind of thought about this, and I thought, you know, what I want my children to learn is that they can trust people, good people in their life.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:47:42]:
But there’s not just 1 single person in their life who’s gonna be perfect for them, But there’s a whole range of people from different walks of life who are going to be able to offer them something relationally, which is gonna support them to grow and develop and see different perspectives. And and I guess we are faced with this challenge all the time, particularly if you you might be Getting divorced or separated from your child’s parent, and they go on like 9 hours to have a new partner and new children. And I’ve really learned that that, Actually, this it takes a village to raise a child is so true. I cannot do this on my own. Actually, I don’t want my children to just have me as the the key only person in their life they can trust in my mind. I want them to have a good range of solid people. So I think about important people in my family. Not everyone in my family I can rely on for that, but I have some key people in my family I can.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:48:39]:
I think about the good friends I’ve got. So find your cheerleaders, you know, the people at school who get your child, who can advocate for your child. And when you find your cheerleaders, also think about the people in your life who the referees, the people who are always criticizing. Just, you know, try to Diminish their impact and invest in those cheerleader relationships so that your child is not just relying on you as the only person who Who gives them what they need, but they’ve got a range of people in their life that they can rely on and they can build relationships up. And I think with my ex husband, I have had benefit him having the children every other weekend, which has freed me up to write this book and freed me up to date and freed me up to, You know, do some things for myself that, actually, I’ve struggled to do if if my ex husband and I were together, actually, I think. Because there’s no way I could just I’ve said I’m gonna put put put myself away for a whole 2 days every other weekend and just write my book. I would have got drawn in to family life. So and and, you know, really, my children have built a relationship with his partner, their children, and that’s gonna be real different.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:49:51]:
That’s gonna come with lots of, like, Well, I’m not sure how I think about that sort of that person’s view on that, but finding a safe space to explore that with your children, so Talking about relationships and how think people do things differently, and there isn’t one right way. It’s not all black and white, embrace the gray, you know? So I think that’s what I’d say is my tip for working parents. You can’t do it all. Find a cheerleaders, find a village to help you raise your child, and think about the simple things you can do to spend time with your children in a really meaningful, connected way so the time you spend with them really counts, but not in a kind of grandiose way. It doesn’t involve buying lots of gifts or doing going on an adventure. It can just be being together in their world. So just sitting with my daughter while she’s on TikTok and and finding out more about what she’s interested in on TikTok and what the race, recent trends are she loves that. She loves me coming into her world where she’s an expert.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:50:55]:
If I give her 20 minutes doing that, She loves that more than me dragging her to do 20 minutes of something I think will be good for her. You know? So I think learning to let go and believe and trust in others to support your children as well as you, and learning to hold on to what counts, So the time that you can give your children to just be with them and see more of the you that they often don’t get to see When, you’re in that zone of trying to order them and organize them, so yeah, connection Before correction is one of the phrases I talk about in the book. So just really learning the value of connection before we go on to Telling your children how to get it right or what not to do. I know that’s tough in real life, but there are lots of examples of how you can really simply integrate that into your life, in the book.
Nicky Lowe [00:51:51]:
Thank you. It feels like a warm hug in this conversation with It really does. So reassuring. And, you know, I’m just sitting here thinking, I can only imagine the parents that get to work with you with their children, how much an important part of cheerleader you must be for them and their future. So thank you for writing such a phenomenal book and for all the work that you do. So people wanna find out more about you and your work and find the book, and I would highly, highly, highly recommend it. Where would you direct them to?
Dr Beth Mosley [00:52:26]:
Well, I have got a website which is, www.doctorbethmosely.com, which is you you you’ll be able to see the spelling on the I was really interested in it. It’s m o s n e y. And I am on Instagram, and I would love to have more followers. I’m also on TikTok too. So if you wanna follow me, I’m trying my best to to, be better at posting things, but I am trying and I will get better at it. But it’s Time, that’s a challenge because I work so many hours with the NHS, and finding the headspace to do it, but I am gonna try and invest a bit more in that. And yeah, my book is on Amazon and, and it’s audible too, and I’m actually the narrator. So I’ve had a few people who’ve who’ve Hi.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:53:10]:
Said to me, oh, it’s really nice to have it in the background. It’s like you said, it’s kind of really reassuring, which is nice to feel like I can I can support and do do that Through through that meeting, Dian?
Nicky Lowe [00:53:23]:
And I honestly, I cannot I’m gonna be one of your biggest cheerleaders, doctor Bay, and because I will be telling everybody, about your book because it is jam packed with such reassuring relatable stories, but also like evidence based strategies and these Pauls, and you bring them alive in your own life. So, yeah, I I think it’s gonna be kind of every parent’s, to be honest. And I’ll put all of those links in the show notes. Just a huge thank you for for being with me today.
Dr Beth Mosley [00:53:50]:
Oh, thank you for having me. It’s been lovely to To talk with you and, yeah, be part of, you know, supporting other mothers and families too. Just facing those daily challenges of the pressures shows that we’ve all got to to do it all, really, quite often. So, yeah, thank you, Nikki.
Nicky Lowe [00:54:11]:
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