Nicky Lowe [00:00:06]:

Hi. I’m Nikki Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom for Working Women’s podcast show where I share insights and interviews that support women to combine their family, work and life in a more successful and sustainable way. It can seem like we live in a world that celebrates extroverted qualities, and this can seem more so when you think about leadership, traditional leadership role models tend to be associated with extroverted qualities. They’re charismatic, assertive. They’re good networkers. They’re great at public speaking. So the journey for introverted people in leadership can be more challenging as there’s an unfavorable bias towards introversion in the workplace, layer in being a woman, and there are some unique challenges for introverted women in leadership roles. which can hold us back from fulfilling our potential. That’s why I’m delighted to be joined by today’s guest, Carol Stewart. Carol is an executive coach and leadership coach. She’s a speaker trainer, podcast host, and author. She’s the founder of unbounding solutions and author of quietly visible, leading with influence and impact as an introverted woman. she coaches women to lead with confidence, influence, and impact with a specialism in introverted women who are senior leaders. Carol was recognized as one of Britain’s top 50 business advisors by Enterprise Nation, a raise rising star champion for her work with women leaders by the We Other City and named as a LinkedIn Top Voice UK 5 times. including 2022 Top Boys for Gender Equality. In 2023, she was added to the Northern Power Women powerless which recognizes trail blazers who challenge the norm and shift the dial towards more equitable world for women in work. and she’s listed as a top 32 business influencer by Business Leader Magazine and was the winner of an inspirational Woman Award for the 18th wise women awards. So, wow, we have got an amazing woman with us. Carol is also a regular columnist for the Sheffield Telegraph and hosts the quietly visible podcast, and she gives the time to causes that support the next generation gender and racial equality and social inclusion. So I am delighted to be able to welcome Carol to the Wisdom for Workman’s podcast show. In this episode, Carol and I explore the difficulties, introverted women encounter in areas such as communication, networking, and external options, Carol sheds light on the misconceptions and stereotypes surrounding introversion, and she also offers guidance and tips on how to overcome them. I can’t wait for you to dive into this conversation with Carol, so come join us as we explore how as introverted women we can build our confidence and assert our leadership capabilities. And by the way, if you’re actually an extrovert, you will still get Lots from this episode because we explore how we interact and support introverted people in our lives and in our work. So welcome, Carol. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode.

Carol Stewart [00:03:25]:

Hi. It’s it’s a pleasure to be here.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:29]:

So, obviously, you’re here to talk to us about kind of introverted women. I first came across your work, actually on a webinar that you were talking about proximity bias. and that’s how I connect with you and then found out about your book quietly visible, leading with influence and impact as an introverted woman. Can you share a bit of the journey that you’ve been on and the work that you do and kind of what motivated you to write the book and do the work that you do in the world?

Carol Stewart [00:03:59]:

Right. Okay. So I’m I’m introverted, but I’m I’m introvert and proud, but I haven’t always been. I, you know, growing up as a child, I was always quiet, and I lacked confidence. And, I used to, as I sort of got older and sort of worked on my self development, I recognize that I wasn’t actually I didn’t actually like confidence. It was because I was quiet, and I was mistaking that for a lack of confidence because of the misconceptions that exist about introversion. as as a leader, before I started my coaching business and an organization, I was very aware that that I was I and I back then, I didn’t really fully understand the differences between introversion, extroversion. But I was aware that I was quieter, and I would often be told, oh, you should speak up more meetings, and you should talk more about what your your group is doing, that sort of thing. and, it was not probably a couple of years before I left employment, as an area leadership team, we did the Myers Briggs test. And I remember adding the scores coming out ISTJ and re adding them and re adding them because I didn’t want to identify with the I because of the misconceptions that you heard about in introversion. but no matter how I tried to re add those scores, it still came out ISTJ. And then they they did this thing after everybody had caught themselves where we had to go into a corner of the room depending on what you came out as. And I just thought that that was a horrible experience. And then it was once I left employment. I was doing a master’s in coaching psychology because I’d left with the intention of starting my, coaching business. I was doing a masters in coaching psychology. And I started to, one of the, things that we looked at was the work of Carl Young. and that’s when I got a better understanding of introversion. and I it’s like I really started to understand myself, and really see that the misconceptions that exist. Anyway, fast forward a few years, and I was reflecting on the clients that I’d worked with, and I recognized a lot of them were introverted as well, and thought, oh, that’s interesting. And then I started writing articles about the challenges introverted humanly displays, And I got bombarded with messages from women, from men all over the world sharing their experiences. with me. And it was sort of during this period as well that once when I was out networking and I was speaking to a woman, and I told her that I was introverted. And she said to me, oh, you don’t look like an introvert. And I thought, well, what is an introvert supposed to look like? And that was just really sort of piqued my interest And I put a call out on social media, and I asked the question when you think of the word introvert, what comes to mind. and I got responses such as shy, like in confidence, in new, social misfit, or negative terms, which could also be associated with extroverts as well. And that just highlighted to me the extent to which there was an unfavorable bias towards introversion. in the workplace, in society, particularly here in in the UK, in the US, and some other countries as well. And so that’s what led to me when I realized the extent of the the the issue and how many introverted women leaders have challenges because of misconceptions and oftentimes what happens is because of these misconceptions, it fed into the way that they saw themselves. And so That’s what led to the book.

Nicky Lowe [00:07:56]:

I love that. And thank you for sharing that journey. I’m just really conscious because we can use terms that we assume other people are familiar with. And I think it might be worth just putting that baseline in place for people. because I’m sure most people listening will have heard of introversion, extroversion. They may not have come. They may have been falling into those misconceptions. Could you explain what you mean when you talk about introversion and extroversion? So at least we’re all kind of coming at it from the same place.

Carol Stewart [00:08:27]:

Do that. So introversion and next division, they are personality traits. and they they exist along a continuum, and we all have a preference as to where we fit along that continuum. So some of the as, veered towards introversion, some veered towards extroversion. Some are what it’s called ambivert, which is I call sort of the best of both worlds because they’re they’re both introverted and extroverted. and it’s all about how we interact and engage with the world. So, people who are introverted have a a preference for environments that are not overly stimulating. So being in environments where there’s a lot of external activity going on. A lot of social activity, can be overly stimulating. And as a result of that, it can make us feel drained. And so we, like to go inwards to recharge. So maybe being in a quiet space or being on our own or being with a smaller group of people in order to recharge and reenergize. Whereas people who are extroverted, they they tend to thrive in environments where there’s that external, activities going on. So being around people, being in social environments, they tend to thrive being in those environments. And and there’s lots of ways in which it shows up in our behaviors. So people who are introverted have a preference for thinking and processing information, And then speaking, most people who are extroverted, they tend to have a preference for, speaking, and master’s they’re, like, processing the information and speaking and processing the information whilst they’re speaking. And oftentimes, that can be misconstrued that because somebody’s talking, that they are more confident than the person that isn’t talking, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it could be that the person who is extroverted and and thinking out loud, so to speak, is just talking their thought through and then they get to their point. different environments, different situations will determine how we act and behave. So, you know, I like, I like to go networking, I like to go to social events, and activities, But if I’m in that sort of environment for too long, I will come away feeling quite drained, although it’s someone who’s extroverted, that might just really energize them for being in that sort of environment.

Nicky Lowe [00:11:15]:

Brilliant. Thank you for sharing that because I think that’s really important because their terms that we hear And I think as you say, it’s about recognizing their personality traits. It’s not one better than the other. Even if are kind of culturally, they might be perceived that way. It’s kind of it’s, it’s just how we’re born and how we interact with the world. And before we hit record, I was I was sharing with you about what we might believe that we are. So I, when I was younger, I thought I was an extrovert, and I would have very clearly said I was an extrovert, but the older I’ve got, the more I’ve acknowledged and honored my introversion tendencies.

Carol Stewart [00:11:52]:

Mhmm.

Nicky Lowe [00:11:53]:

And you know, just anybody listening just to reflect on that about, you know, we might have learned to behave in a particular way but actually is that your natural preference and what might that mean? So in your book, you talk about the unique challenges that actually introverted women facing leadership roles, could you share a bit about those challenges and and what impact you think they might have on somebody career progression.

Carol Stewart [00:12:21]:

So so because of the a lot of the misconceptions, it it can shape how people see people who are introverted. So some of the challenges are so you’ve got that that set of challenges because people we we we live in what Susan Cain who wrote the book and acquired the power of interests in the world that can’t stop talking, what she calls, the extrovert ideal. And that’s an omnipresent belief that the ideal self is of the gregarious and comfortable being in the spotlight. And historically, That is what was being associated with being a good leader. Yeah. And so people who, and it’s often the case that he or she who shouts the loudest is one that gets heard, gets the recognition, gets ahead. So people who don’t fit that type, will often not I’ll be seen as, well, they’re not necessarily a good leader. They’re not necessarily seen as leadership material, but, you know, that is That is so wrong because introverts do make great leaders too. and so that is one particular challenge there’s the challenge. And and you sort of you sort of touched on as well, whereby acting in ways which go against who you are. And I see that happens a lot because there is that pressure to act more extroverted in the workplace, and what happens then is you know, you people will do that, but that puts a lot of pressure on on you. When you’re acting in ways that don’t come naturally to you, even if you put yourself into a lot of pressure, it can be stressful, and it can ultimately affect your self confidence. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:14:04]:

And also trust, I suppose, because people see that there’s something not quite authentic.

Carol Stewart [00:14:08]:

That’s right. Yes. And and you come across as in authentic. And and an exam, a great example that I like to use of this. and I will often when I’m doing talks and workshops, I will often play the video. I don’t even remember when Theresa May was prime minister, and she did her last party conference. and she walked onto the stay, or she danced onto the stage, I was dancing queen. I cringed when I saw that because she just looked so inauthentic, and I thought, Whoever’s advised her to do that, though. She it just made her come across as so inauthentic. and it was really cringe worthy. and when I think the time when I saw her look in her most authentic self, was when she was delivering her resignation speech outside 10 Downing Street, she just got so natural and confident in there was a something about her, and I thought, why couldn’t she be like that throughout her petnership rather than, I mean, these are people whoever it was advising her to to bounce onto the stage, to others dancing queen. Like, you know, she’s like, these sort of like, yeah, me sort of thing?

Nicky Lowe [00:15:25]:

that’s such a powerful example. Yeah. Because as you say, the stereotypes that we then fall into about, oh, actually, if I’m a good leader, this is the kind of behavior that I should be exhibiting What are some of those other misconceptions or stereotypes that you that kind of exist about leaders and and particularly then for women leaders?

Carol Stewart [00:15:48]:

Yeah. So so the misconceptions around don’t make great leaders. They’re they’re not able to sort of have that influence and impact. but they they like confidence. They don’t like public speaking, but they’re shy. Oh, you know, those are just some of those misconceptions, and that can then be determined how people see each of it. Like I said, mentioned it earlier, I would get told when I was a leader, oh, we should speak up more in meetings and I think to myself, well, I’ll speak, and I’ve got something of value to Anne, not a couple of feet, just for the states, just for the sake of speaking. And I think meetings are probably one of the biggest challenges in the workplace for interrelated people because the way that most meetings are conducted don’t allow for that. thinking and processing of information that people who are introverted need in order to give their their best thoughts. where people get put on this spot and they’re expected to respond on this spot. The same thing is with interviews, job interviews, Again, it’s the way that inter most interviews are contacted. You’re just given a question and expected to respond on the spot. And then that can things like interviews and meetings then become a challenge because people, introverted people feel well, They have to perform and and speak on this spot, and then that can be on performance anxiety. And then they start to feel matches about performing in meetings or performing in interviews because they’re not able to think and process their information. And they’re not just sort of is that it’s a sort of like a vicious circle because then they become because they’re anxious, they’re not performing at their best.

Nicky Lowe [00:17:42]:

Yeah. And it’s interesting. It’s just making me think there’s an inherent bias, isn’t there in built into the system that means that in an interview, an extrovert is more likely to perform better if they on the spot, not because of the better candidate, but set up for for them to and it’s making me think my my son was identified as dyslexic last year. It’s really open my mind to kind of neurodivergence and how, you know, how much is built into the system that doesn’t allow for that divergence of thinking and style and preference. And it’s, as you say, very much so in in in our kind of organizational environments.

Carol Stewart [00:18:20]:

And that’s right. It it it doesn’t because they have there’s this, you know, what is considered the ideal. and people that don’t meet that ideal are then not necessarily given that opportunity. neurodiversity. That is, you know, a thing that, you know, many organizations don’t necessarily think about how they can, be inclusive in that way.

Nicky Lowe [00:18:47]:

But this is a fundamental, you know, the the you know, introversion, extroversion, and our and our awareness of it has been around for decades, if not long, hasn’t it, and the fact that we’re still not set up for it. If somebody’s listening going, yeah, I I can completely relate to this. You know, I’m an introverted woman, and I’m I’m having to navigate those kind of challenges in the workplace. What are some of the key strategies or techniques that an introverted woman can use to leverage their strength and really enhance their leadership presence?

Carol Stewart [00:19:20]:

so key, I would say, is developing self awareness. developing your self awareness and and knowing yourself, knowing your strength, knowing the environments where you feel energized in and those that deplete your energy and know how you can recharge. So for example, don’t have back to back meetings. a lot of lead leaders will have back to back meetings all day. If you’re going into environments where there’s all that stimulation going on around you, By the end of the day, you’re going to feel drained or even during the course of the day. You’re going to feel like you’re you want to withdraw and go inwards. And so then you’re not necessarily going to be as engaged in the meeting. When it comes when it comes to speaking up in meetings, I’m giving your opinion if you get put on the spot, and you find it challenging to be able to then give a quick response, Do a lot of your thinking before the meeting. So go through the agenda beforehand, identify those topics that you want to express an opinion on and think about what your thoughts are about that, make notes about it so that when you go into the meeting, you’ve done a lot of that thinking beforehand. And if you do get put on the spot, you know, you’re you’re in your role for a reason because you were deemed the best person for your role. So you you have got, unless you’re just starting out in the role, that you will have some knowledge and experience. So if you do get put on this spot, give your initial thoughts. what you initially think about what you’re being asked. And then if you, think that you may have something to add, just let people know. If I’ve got for anything further to add, I’ll get back to you. If you get put on this bot and you find that you you just can’t think of anything in that moment, just say, well, once I’ve had chance to process my process the information, I’ll let you know what I think. And when I was, researching my book. There was one, senior vice president who said that when she joined the organization, she made it clear to people, but if they wanted her to, give her response or give her best for give her give her give her a if they wanted her to make a decision on this part, she could give her thoughts, but it wouldn’t be her best. If they wanted her to give her best thoughts and her, they make her best decisions, she needed time to process the information first. And I think by setting the scene in that way, that she set herself up well,

Nicky Lowe [00:21:57]:

I love that. And it just creates a real authentic respect, doesn’t it? I always remember Benny Brown, people probably be familiar with her. I know you I know you will, Carol, but that she she’s an American lady probably has one of the most well listened to Ted Talks out there talks a lot about vulnerability and leadership. And she does, you know, she’s so successful now. She does a lot of extroverted work. She’s she’s a public speaker. she goes and enters a lot of consulting with organizations, but it’s very open that she’s introverted and really owns that well. So when she goes on stage, she’ll do kind of long full day training sessions on stage, and she will say to people, Right. We’re gonna be taking a 2 hour lunch. Now that might be longer than you would normally have, but If you want me to come back and deliver my best, I’m an introvert, and I need that time to recharge. And I’ve also heard her do it where she’s like, and I’m flying back home to see my family tonight, and I wanna I’ve got enough energy at the end of today to give to my family. So this is what I need. And I just love how she owns. It’s like, as she says self awareness, speaking to to your needs, owning it, and creating the boundaries around it.

Carol Stewart [00:23:13]:

That’s right. Yes. And and I love that. And I love when we see leaders, people in the public eye who are open in that way and and talk about it in that way because then it it helps with the people who may be feeling that feeling sort of drained or feeling that they’ve got to put on this performance. That it’s okay. It’s okay to be you.

Nicky Lowe [00:23:38]:

Absolutely. And for somebody that might be listening that’s not introverted, but might have Either knowingly or unknowingly people in their team or, you know, in their workplace that are introverted, what will tips or strategies or techniques could you give them to make sure that they’re bringing and creating that time and space for for the introverted people on their teams?

Carol Stewart [00:24:02]:

There’s so given them that space to have that time to think. So in meetings, when, if you’re sort of facilitating a meeting, chairing a meeting, make sure that everybody has an opportunity to contribute to the meeting. So it’s quite easy just to let those who are more vocal have their say, without necessarily listening to those who are not necessarily being as vocal, but, you know, making sure that everybody has an opportunity to contribute. it and, I I I’ll there’s one one way which, Amazon were reported, I don’t know whether they still do this, but when I was doing my research, the landlord, their senior leadership meetings, they would start everybody had a a briefing paper to read. They’d have 15 minutes to read to get their thoughts on it. And then they’d, as a group, they would discuss the matters that they wanted to focus on in the meeting, doing things like that enables people who need that time to process information to do to do so and process that information and speak and and and recognize that just because somebody is not as vocal Does it mean to say that they do not got anything of value to add or that they aren’t making a contribution? Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, we still it shows that people who are extroverted get more opportunities in the workplace because their performance is more visible. because they’re more likely to talk about what they’re doing, they’re more likely to self promote than people who are introverted. So being aware of that and understanding that and don’t say to your interrelated team members, you need to speak up more in meetings or you need to be more do this more, understand, get to understand them, what their strengths are, how they operate, and and be aware of the unfavorable bias that there is towards introversion.

Nicky Lowe [00:26:03]:

I love that. And it’s making me think I used to do a lot of work with the supermarket astor put their head office and leads, and they brought in a culture called The Thinking Environment, and it’s by Nancy Klein.

Carol Stewart [00:26:14]:

Oh, yes. Yes. I love that.

Nicky Lowe [00:26:15]:

Ah, it’s And when you look at it, you’re like, oh my god. Why is this just not common practice? And I’ll I’ll put a link in the show notes for people, but there are kind of these principles. I can’t remember if there’s 10 or 12 that are kind of like these principles that you hold any meeting by, and it’s the quality of thinking in a in a meeting, and how do we create quality thinking? Cause that’s how the decisions are made and giving everybody that equal time and space and meeting different preferences. And I, the more I’m listening to you, the more I’m kind of going, oh, there are times when you know, I’m I’m just falling into that, the organizational bias. And, yeah, it’s being really aware of your own needs, but also other peoples. And that’s challenging when we live in such kind of fast paced demanding environments.

Carol Stewart [00:27:02]:

And that’s right. Yeah. And and because of how are cultures and societies that, we’ve just become sort of conditioned that this is how this this is how it should be, that, you know, increasingly is being challenged. and that is one of the things that I do is to to challenge and to create that awareness. and and I think also with with children, understanding with children because, you know, that is where it starts. And and I still see today where introverts are children are made to feel that because they’re more quieter that they’re not as good as as the others. That then has an effect on them as they grow.

Nicky Lowe [00:27:48]:

Absolutely. It’s interesting. I’ve got my son. My eldest is highly extrovert, and I think that’s where when I first became a mum, I realized actually more my more introversion because I I’d been able to build a life where I could have my introverted time, but then when I became a mom and I know, I’d got this highly extroverted child. I was like, oh, okay. Can’t remember that introversion time. It’s gonna be a real learning curve for me. but my daughter, I’m not sure if she’s more introverted, but she’s definitely more introverted than my son, but she came home from school the one day and said, oh, mommy, I’m shy. And it’s not a word we’ve ever used in our house because I it’s not a word we use. You know, you might be feeling, you know, a bit, self conscious or whatever the word might be, but I’ve never ever labeled her shy because I do, yeah, And it was really interesting. I was like, where have you got that from? and I even had a conversation with their teachers just in passing to say, do you use that word in the classroom? Because Yeah. It wasn’t a label I wanted to put on her because, you know, she just she’s more reflective or just needs more time or and, yeah, I’m very conscious of that with my children.

Carol Stewart [00:28:58]:

Yeah. And and the thing is, and and it’s great that you, you know, you you recognize that that is what’s what’s gone on and what’s happening. I’ve spoken to a woman a couple of years ago, we’ve got

Nicky Lowe [00:29:12]:

2

Carol Stewart [00:29:12]:

children, 17, 15, a seven year old boy, extroverted, very outgoing, family gatherings. He’d be running around playing with the other children and that was a five year old daughter would sort of cling to her or stick by her side. And she always she said that she’d be pushing her to to go and play, whereas she didn’t want to. And she said one day she walked past the school, and she saw her daughter sat in the playground on her own. And so she stormed down to the school, demanding why is my child on her own? and the teacher said, well, she’s she’s happy. She’s happy being on her own, and she’s happy when she’s playing with other children. And and so I asked this woman, I said, what what do you think the message is that your daughter’s getting if you’re constantly saying to, oh, she’s got to be like this. She’s got to be like that. And she she recognizes, well, if she carries on like that, her daughter’s going to, like, believe him herself, as she grows because she’s is basically, she’s telling her that she’s not good enough. Yeah. And then she realized that you needed to change.

Nicky Lowe [00:30:14]:

And, like, comes from the best intention as parents, isn’t it? Yeah.

Carol Stewart [00:30:20]:

And that’s one of the things that I see with a lot of the clients that I coach who have experienced imposter syndrome or or they they lack self belief because of situations that they’ve been made to feel, but because they’re introverted because they’re quiet, they’re not good enough.

Nicky Lowe [00:30:36]:

Yeah. So I think you touched on this earlier, but obviously part of being in an organization environment and part of career progression is that networking and building these professional relationships. So what advice would you have for somebody that’s introverted about how they can do that in a way that feels right for them without feeling like they’ve got to put an act on or feeling overwhelmed.

Carol Stewart [00:31:01]:

Yeah. and and, you know, it is it is important to develop your network. So, you know, if you’re going to networking events, don’t feel that you have to work the room and speak to lots of different people. someone who’s extroverted may enjoy doing that, but don’t feel that you have to do that. People are introvert to prefer quality of conversations over quantity, generally, adult to stereotype, but generally, that’s, you know, what the researchers show. And so having you can it’s okay to have fewer conversations that are more quality conversations with people when you’re out networking. so things that you can do is when you’re networking, think about those people that you want to connect with, if you know who’s going to it, be attending a networking event, maybe connecting with them on LinkedIn or if it’s an internal networking event, sending them an email to say, oh, I see you’re going to be at such a place. It’d be good to have a chat if we could have a catch up. When you go to the networking event, be be intentional about who you want to connect with, who you want to speak with, and play to your strengths because introverts have all known for being good listeners. and people like to be listened to. So utilize your strengths of listening, when you’re speaking to people, listen to what they have to say. And and if you’re somebody who maybe finds it difficult to to make a conversation when you’re not networking, And this plight applies to people who are extroverted as well because some people find it, you know, don’t know how to start conversations. ask open questions, questions that start, what, where, who, when, so that the person more responded more than a yes or a no answer, listen to what they say, and then ask another question, open question, and do that a few times. And then that the conversation will start to flow. And then they’re likely to because, you know, they feel heard, they feel listened to ask you questions in return. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:33:09]:

I love that. And I hear what you’re saying about really play to your strengths and — Yes. That’s right. And that’s brilliant. And I’m I’m What was also coming into my mind was and and choose, I suppose, where possible, the methodologies that are more suitable. So I know Like, I as I’ve got older, as I say, and I’m I’m acknowledging and honoring my introversion more, when I meet up with friends, I’d rather do it in really small intimate groups than do a big get together. And just, you know, that meets my needs and I show up far better. And I’m wondering if that’s the same in terms of networking, you know, rather than go to these big conferences where you gotta work a room. It’s, you know, is there a networking group where you can sit down and and have, you know, perhaps 2, 3, 5, 10, whatever, you know, might feel right for that person. So it doesn’t feel that feel as overwhelming.

Carol Stewart [00:34:04]:

That’s right. Yes. And and, you know, even maybe sort of meeting people on a one to one basis for up or something like that. I had a client who, didn’t like networking, introverted, didn’t like networking, wanted to change career, wanted to progress, and I sort of encouraged her to utilize LinkedIn and reconnect with people on LinkedIn and to reach out to people that she’s, that she knew on LinkedIn. And what she did was she sort she did that and arranged to meet people for coffees. one person that she arranged to, to have a copy with, it turned out that they were an unexecutive director on the board of an organization that she’d applied for a job for. and so that person was able to sort of go back and and see her papers. And she got she got the role on her merit, but it it would have helped. You know, that person being able to vouch for her.

Nicky Lowe [00:35:01]:

Yeah. And several times, we’ve we’ve mentioned already in this podcast about confidence. And I’m god, my head’s going to two places in that there is this, as you say, this misconception that the quietness is mistaken for of confidence. And I so I’ve got a question around that about how can how can we manage that? But, also, if the message we’re getting is that we’re not good in we’re not performing to this kind of extroverted bias, how we can manage that if it has impacted our confidence. I wonder if you could speak to those 2. two pieces about any advice you’ve got.

Carol Stewart [00:35:39]:

Yeah. So so with regards to the confidence, I’ll do the latter part first. if you because you’ve been made to feel that because you are quiet, that you’re not good enough, is to challenged, though, the thoughts and beliefs that you have about yourself, and this is a very much led by our emotions, most of us, or a lot of us are. the way that we think affects how we feel, and we have to behave according to how we’re feeling. So if you’ve you’ve been given these messages and it’s shaped how you think and and what you believe about yourself, just challenge it, and look at what is a more helpful for for to have about yourself, what is a more helpful perspective to have about yourself, recognize that there is this bias, and people who have told you that your or made you feel you’re not good enough because you’re quiet. They’re probably just acting on how they’ve been conditioned or what they’ve been conditioned to to think and believe. So challenges thoughts and beliefs that yourself. And and look at your the skills and the experience and your strengths, and what it is that you you bring to the table. And don’t mistake, a lack of competence to a lack of confidence So if you, ace of, well, because oftentimes, I see people will write themselves off saying, oh, I like confidence. When they’re maybe just one particular skill that they need to develop, or they might be that they need to get experience in the particular thing that they haven’t got experience in. So don’t just write yourself off, but look at if you’re saying you lack confidence, what is it that you actually lack confidence in? identifying what it is that you lack confidence in. and look at what is needed to bring yourself to speed? Is it is it developing skills? Is it getting some experience, or is it practicing some something? Because with with, practice comes confidence. So is it that you lack confidence? Is it that your you you you want to need to develop your competence, or is it that you lack the belief in yourself? So once you are able to identify, which it is, then you can address it more easily rather than just a blanket. I like covid I like confidence.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:08]:

Brilliant. And I think that’s so powerful. It’s making me think client that was cake that I’ve been coaching for a while, and she’s a finance director for quite a large organization. And she had her kind of annual kind of performance discussion with her boss who’s a CFO. And, in the group’s conversation. They were talking about career progression, and she was saying, you know, she does wanna progress in her career. And the succession plan would be that she would have that CFO role. He his feedback was, well, you know, you you’re not in the running for it because you’re you’re not challenging enough. And this was a really difficult piece of feedback for her because it came from the The board of directors are incredibly challenging. They’re all men. They’re quite aggressive challenges, and she didn’t fit that stereotype. Mhmm. and she went away and reflected on it, and we had a coaching session on it. And she kind of went back and was like, you know, I’ve gotta disagree with that. I do challenge, but let me show you how I challenge. and she put it across in, like, this is how you’ll see me challenge. Here’s some really great examples of when I’ve done it. It might not fit your stereotype. but I’m absolutely doing it, and here’s the impact that it’s had. And she recognized that perhaps she’s not being visible enough in how she challenges. and her her thing was, you know, not taking that on borders, you know, she can’t challenge. It’s just now I can. I do it in my own way. and I need to be sharing more about when I do it because you may not be seeing me do it because I do it in more of a quieter way.

Carol Stewart [00:39:43]:

Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:39:43]:

And And her feedback also was, you know, what? If you, you know, we’re a company that’s committed to divi diversity and inclusion, if you’ll want me to just be another kind of the same as the rest of the people on the board. We’re not gonna have diversity in thinking. We’re not gonna have diversity in approach. and, you know, I bring something different. And it, like, her her self respect and her self esteem in having those converse she just was amazing to.

Carol Stewart [00:40:11]:

Oh, that’s fantastic. Yeah. And and good for her because you, you know, you don’t You don’t have to be loud and, you know, bratty about great, but but you do need to people do need to know about your achievements and the difference that you’re making. And I think that’s often where introverted when we need just maybe solve themselves short. because they don’t necessarily talk about it to who the people that need to know particularly. So like your I think I think your client is a great example of how it can be done and how to have that conversation. And that is that is quite a difficult conversation to have when, you know, you’ve been given that feedback,

Nicky Lowe [00:40:57]:

and it done the feedback really stung when she first got it, and so it took some processing to get to that place.

Carol Stewart [00:41:03]:

Yeah. And particularly by a board, which is mainly or or male, in that sort of environment where you’re just standing up as yourself being your authentic self, and if you’re saying, no, I’m not doing this. and so I’m I really take my hat off for her for just being herself and for speaking up in that way. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:41:29]:

And I’m I’m intrigued about kind of some of your practices. because clearly you’ve done more reflection than probably most people will have on your yourself because of the work you do, What have you learned about kind of preserving your energy and what works for you in in how you work? We talked earlier about, you know, making sure you don’t have back to back meetings. One things that you’ve learned along your journey that kind of might seem just everyday practice to you, but somebody might go, oh my god. I’ve never thought of that.

Carol Stewart [00:42:01]:

Yes. So have having that space for thinking and reflecting. One of the things that I do most days is journal. and that is a great way for me just to self reflect and to think about, you know, what is going on in my mind and process my thoughts and so forth. So that is one thing that I do. Having having that space you know, where I can be on my own and and being okay with it, and being, you know, having those boundaries in place, and not being afraid to say, you know, that, you know, I want some time on my own. Or, turning down invitations if I have to feel that I haven’t got the energy to go to something.

Nicky Lowe [00:42:45]:

And that’s huge. You know, we that, oh my gosh, that’s such a huge one because I think there is so much pressure. Particularly, I imagine when you’re running your own business as well because you know, networking and connection and, you know, not wanting to miss out on opportunities and just honoring yourself and go, nope. That’s not gonna work for me.

Carol Stewart [00:43:05]:

Yeah. because that was one of the things that I did. You know, when I first started my business, I was networking here and networking there. and And then and they got to this stage. I thought, gosh, this is draining. and so then I was very became very selective about the networking events that I went to or that I do go to I don’t just like going to a networking event where it’s just like a social gathering, and there’s I I like to go to somewhere there, the where there’s a fee, maybe a speaker, or something that there’s that focus, not just to the gathering where there’s just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, and drinks, and talk, and blah blah blah blah blah. I mean, I do go to the the other ones, but I’m selective about where we go networking because and I know what drains me and what energizes me.

Nicky Lowe [00:43:54]:

Yeah. It’s interesting. My with my daughter, 5th birthday this weekend. So we had family over on Sunday, and then she had a a party for her school friends at a soft play. last night. And I got home, and I was like, oh my god. I am. I’m so tired because I’d had 2 back to back days of a lot of people. And it was interesting because I was saying to one of the moms, I was like, having the party at soft plays, kind of my idea of how because the the stimulation is off the scale for me. It’s interesting because I’ve had to tolerate almost the guilt of saying that as a mom because some

Carol Stewart [00:44:34]:

of the moms are like, oh, no.

Nicky Lowe [00:44:35]:

I love it here. The kids get to play. I get sit down and have a cup of coffee. It’s like, I, you know, they I feel like they’re looking at me going on. You’re not very good mom if you can’t cope with that. And it’s, you know, just tolerating. That’s just me. I’ve just gotta accept, you know, I’d rather my daughter and as she gets older, hopefully, and I’m not trying not to influence this too much. she’ll teach 2 or 3 friends that we take out and do something with rather than the whole class. you know, and just, again, acknowledging that and not making it wrong.

Carol Stewart [00:45:04]:

That’s right. Yes. It’s and I think it’s about allowing a child just to be themselves And I could relate to totally relate to what you said earlier about your extroverted sun because I’ve got us and who’s very extroverted. And as a child, he was draining In first thing in the morning, you’d be yep yep yep yep yep and wanting to play whereas I want just to be a little bit quiet as I start my day and get into the day. So, yes, I could totally relate to what you said that about that.

Nicky Lowe [00:45:34]:

Yeah. And I I, again, once I acknowledged it, I found bar times really difficult because I’d almost drained all my energy being around him as an extrovert to the point that we could be sat next to each other. But if we weren’t in conversation, he’d go, mum, mum, and I’d be Yeah. And he’s like, nothing. Just wanna check you there. He, like, constantly wanted to be connected. and I had to kind of say to my husband, I I need you to take over bath times because I’m literally energetically. I’m on the floor, not necessarily physically, just that mental I’ve not got the capacity to hold this without kind of getting irritable, and that’s not fair on him and just honoring, you know, that’s what I need, and he needs somebody that can connect and and Scott the energy for that.

Carol Stewart [00:46:15]:

Yeah. And that that brings to mind something with regards to sort of introverted leaders who are who are managing an extroverted team members about recognizing that You know, they they may they may have a a different kind of energy or act in a way which you may not necessarily which may not necessarily be, you may find draining or if it’s about having that awareness, And I I once had a client who had an extrovert to team member who who would I’ll be be talking about what she was doing to my client’s manager. And and my initially, my client saw it as well. this person is, like, trying to, like, bypass her and get the attention of her manager. But when we really flawed it. What it was is this because this person, she was she wanted to progress. She was extra she was extroverted. that was her style to to be talking about what she’s doing, and she’s spoke to everybody. And once my my client had the understanding of her team member, she was unable to give her the opportunities that enabled her to to be out there to to speak a lot and to interact a lot. And and that really helped their relationship as well.

Nicky Lowe [00:47:41]:

that’s brilliant. It’s, yeah, holding the to do that, oh, what else could be going on here? And and then, yeah, you can you can then be, I suppose, a bit more compassionate to it. there’s so much you’ve shared and so much goodness in this this conversation. But if there is just one thing you’d want somebody listening take away from this conversation, what would you want that to be?

Carol Stewart [00:48:03]:

I’d say the introvert and proud Yeah. Be yourself. Don’t feel that you’ve got to put on a persona and acting ways that are not you. Be yourself. Utilize your strength. No. Develop yourself awareness. Sorry. This is more than one thing. Develop yourself awareness so you know those situations where you may need to modify your behavior, but it’s about modifying in a behave in your behavior in ways that show authentic. And all all leaders need to be able to modify their behavior depending on the situation and the outcome that they want to have. So whether you are introverted or extroverted. having that self awareness about when so there may be situations where you might not necessarily feel like going somewhere, but because of the role, because of, something that is needed, you may need to. So it’s about knowing yourself, understanding yourself. and being into that and found.

Nicky Lowe [00:49:05]:

Brilliant. Thank you. So where can people find out more about you Carol, your work, your book, where would you point them towards, and I can put all the links in the show notes.

Carol Stewart [00:49:15]:

If you go to my website, abounding solutions.com, you can find out more about me, the link linked to my book is on there as well. and I’m on LinkedIn. Carol Stewart on LinkedIn. Connecting me on LinkedIn. Brilliant.

Nicky Lowe [00:49:31]:

Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me and sharing all of your insights. There’s with so much goodness in this conversation.

Carol Stewart [00:49:38]:

Thank you, Nikki. It’s been a pleasure.

Nicky Lowe [00:49:43]:

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