Nicky Lowe [00:00:06]:
Hi, it’s Nicky Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom for Working Mums podcast show. I’m your host, and for nearly 2 decades now, I’ve been an executive coach and leadership development consultant. And on this show, I share evidence-based insights from my coaching, leadership, and psychological expertise, and inspiring interviews that help women like you to combine your work life and motherhood in a more successful and sustainable way. Join Join me and my special guests as we delve into leadership and lifestyle topics for women, empowering you to thrive one conversation at a time. I’m so happy that you’re here, and let’s get on with today’s episode. When I was pregnant with my first child, I had this vision of what becoming a mother would be like. I imagined I’d experience birth like Beyoncé described it, as like this powerful, connected, strong, like deeply empowering experience. I thought that becoming a mum would unlock like this new empowered version of myself, and the reality was very different.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:16]:
If I’m honest, my firstborn’s birth broke me. I felt more vulnerable than I had ever felt in my life. Physically, emotionally, and mentally, I felt completely exposed, and yet at that very moment, I was responsible for keeping a tiny human being alive. It was one of the most disorientating experiences of my life. And whilst many parents have positive experiences of pregnancy, birth, and early parenthood, for many others, the transition is far more complex. Alongside the joy, can come anxiety, depression, trauma, a loss of confidence, identity shifts, and overwhelming pressure. Yet so many parents suffer in silence because what they’re experiencing doesn’t match the story that they thought parenthood would, or they feel some sense of guilt or shame about feeling differently. What I’ve come to understand is that maternal mental health isn’t simply a personal issue.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:23]:
It affects our relationships, our wellbeing, and our experiences at work. Yet many workplaces still don’t fully understand the realities of perinatal mental health or how to support employees through one of the biggest transitions of their lives. And today my guest is Nicky Wilson, CEO of the Maternal Mental Health Alliance, an award-winning charity and network working to ensure that every mother and birthing person can access the mental healthcare they need. Nicky brings both professional expertise and a lived experience to this conversation, including her own journey with postnatal PTSD. And together we explore what perinatal mental health really means, why it matters in the workplace, and how managers and colleagues can better support parents, and also what organisations can do to create cultures where people don’t have to struggle alone. So whether you’re a parent, a manager, a colleague, or someone who simply wants to better understand the realities of this life-changing transition, this is an important conversation. So let’s dive in and welcome Nicky. So welcome, Nicky.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:37]:
Thank you for joining me on the podcast.

Nikki Wilson [00:03:39]:
Thank you for inviting me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:42]:
So today we’re talking about this topic of perinatal mental health. And it’s probably a term that most people have heard, but if they haven’t, or they’ve not really understood what it means, could you kind of give us a definition, please?

Nikki Wilson [00:03:58]:
Yeah, of course. I think I remember the first time I heard that word perinatal, quite a few years ago, and I Googled it because I didn’t have any idea what it meant. And I don’t think we should assume that anyone does. You hear the word natal and you think, oh, Maybe that’s something to do with pregnancy or babies, don’t you? Basically, perinatal is quite a recent term in terms of, you know, its use within clinical settings. And there is no one kind of universally agreed definition of what it means. Kind of traditionally, particularly in, in clinical settings, it tends to be talking about mental health problems that may present themselves during pregnancy or in the year or two after birth. So in the NHS, that’s probably, that’s the type of definition they’re going to be using. But really, as we all know, mental health doesn’t fit within neat timelines, um, and nor does the experience of wanting to become a parent.

Nikki Wilson [00:05:00]:
And I often explain it as really, it’s everything that may be involved with your mental health from the point at which you decide that you would like to be a parent. and then all the way through the journey of what comes next. Because of course, for some people, that never results in them holding a baby in their arms, and a lot can happen along the way. So I tend to prefer— and at the Maternal Mental Health Alliance, we tend to take a kind of a bit more flexible approach around, around that definition.

Nicky Lowe [00:05:35]:
Brilliant, thank you. I think that was really useful. And in terms of what the Maternal Mental Health Alliance does. Can you kind of describe the services you provide and, and what you do?

Nikki Wilson [00:05:46]:
Yeah, absolutely. So we’re a UK charity, and I think we’re best understood as a collaborative network. So we are made up of more than 160 member organisations, more than 50 lived experience champions who tell their stories of all of the different types and ways that mental health can play out in this period. And then we have this vast array of advocates and they’re experts and allies in all kinds of different ways, people out there really championing what we do. And we work as a network predominantly. In fact, our main area of work is around campaigning, policy advocacy, and we’re most well known for what we’ve achieved in that space. So we did a lot of work to advocate for the rollout, national rollout of new perinatal mental health teams within the NHS. And that happened.

Nikki Wilson [00:06:39]:
So that was really our signature and will always be our kind of legacy big campaign, which was all about turning the map green and putting services in places that they hadn’t been before. At the same time, we do also do 2 other big chunks of work. We do a lot of collaborative work with our members and others to really look at innovative ways that we might be able to improve perinatal mental health care. And then the last really important kind of pillar we talk about is around tackling stigma and raising awareness. And that has and will always be a big part of our brief. We do that in lots of different ways, but the fact is, while stigma levels are reducing, uh, there is still a long way to go. So that’s a big part of what we’re doing as well.

Nicky Lowe [00:07:25]:
Such incredibly important work. And I think We assume that parenthood is just full of joy, and, you know, the, the route to parenthood is just, just joyful experience. And we know that that is not always the case, and it is far more complex than that. So what are some of the key mental health challenges that you are kind of supporting, and where do you see You’ve talked about the stigma there. Where do you see the stigma show up in that?

Nikki Wilson [00:07:58]:
It’s a really good question. We’ve got more of a language for mental health now, don’t we, than we used to, and that’s really helpful. Um, and at the same time, it can be a bit reductive in terms of understanding the full spectrum of what might be going on. So I always— um, I’m a very visual learner, so I like a triangle here. I think it’s the most useful one to think about. So at the base That’s really where you’re talking about wellness, mental wellness. And it’s where all of those really common wellbeing challenges come up. And that’s obviously sleep deprivation, loss of self-care routines, isolation.

Nikki Wilson [00:08:38]:
70% of people talk about their maternity leave as one of the loneliest stages of their life. You’ve got overwhelm, relationship pressures. There’s a lot going on at the base. There’s a lot that’s destabilizing there. For some people, it will be part of what’s going on at that level that triggers them to experience a more kind of what we often call common mental health problems. And within that mix, so you kind of next layer up on the triangle. Now you’re talking about depression, anxiety, and also trauma symptoms, which are quite commonly— we roll them into depression or anxiety, but trauma in and of itself you know, if you’re skilled at knowing what you’re talking about, you can wrongly package that as depression or anxiety when really what’s being played out is, is trauma. So 1 in 4 people will experience a diagnosable and treatable perinatal mental health problem.

Nikki Wilson [00:09:37]:
And that is very weighted towards those more common mental health problems, as I say, depression, anxiety, and trauma. Some people’s experiences of depression, anxiety, and trauma may not relate to things that are at the base of that triangle. They may relate to things they’ve experienced before they became parents. They may be more disposed to having mental health problems because they run in the family. They may have a history of adverse childhood experiences. There’s a lot of things that we know correlate to the likelihood that you are, you become more likely to experience a mental health problem. So not everything flows from the triangle upwards, if that makes sense.

Nicky Lowe [00:10:20]:
Yeah.

Nikki Wilson [00:10:20]:
And then as you go up the triangle, you, you’re moving into less so common, but not rare diagnoses. Um, so you’d be talking about obsessive compulsive disorder, about eating disorders, about bipolar depression, PTSD for those who are at that acute end of the trauma experience, tokophobia, which is a severe fear of pregnancy or childbirth. And in that mix, again, to be very crude, you’re kind of talking about between 2% and 10% of people who experience a mental health problem in the perinatal period will be in that bracket of more complex, if you like, mental health problems that become more debilitating, more and more debilitating, if you like. But in fact, it’s not useful to compare the layers. In reality, it’s all very valid and everyone’s experiences play out for them in the way that they— in the way they play out for them. And then at the top of the triangle, I think it is important to hold it here, is postpartum psychosis. So between 1 and 2 in every 1,000 people who deliver a baby will experience postpartum psychosis. And that is a very rare emergency, and it’s a psychiatric emergency.

Nikki Wilson [00:11:42]:
So that’s where people will need to be admitted into a mother and baby unit, which we now have nationwide, which is great, to receive very specialist mother and baby care because Um, that’s, it’s a real kind of crisis situation.

Nicky Lowe [00:11:58]:
That’s— I really appreciate you doing that in that visual way because actually as you were walking through it, I could, I could visualize it. And I know that you have come to do this work through your own journey. Would you mind sharing a little bit about what, what brought you to be so passionate about this?

Nikki Wilson [00:12:15]:
Yeah, of course. So I’m going to keep the triangle now at this point because Let me know if I’ve gone too far with the triangle. I am a white, middle-class woman of privilege, and that’s a really important thing to state always in these spaces, because we do have to hold in mind how our privilege affects the way that we experience the world. I was really happy to be pregnant. I was in, and still feel incredibly fortunate to be in, a really loving marriage and very supportive marriage. And I’d always wanted to be a mum. So for me, this was like dream come true stuff. And like everyone, like most people, I thought, I’m gonna, I’ll bleep this so you don’t have to.

Nikki Wilson [00:13:16]:
I said to my colleagues at the time, it’s okay, I’m just gonna meditate the S-H-bleep-T out of giving birth. It’ll be fine, it’ll be fine, you know? And I was that kind of early adopter of hypnobirthing, for example, kind of 12 years ago. And it didn’t go that way. So like for many people, their expectations didn’t meet their reality. And then this complex interplay of kind of physical and mental events played out when birthing my first son, Thomas. He was born vaginally. I did have a postpartum hemorrhage. It was a very long, extended labor.

Nikki Wilson [00:13:55]:
I had to stay in hospital and various things happened. And what it culminated in was a moment a few days after Thomas was born where I— my milk was coming in, but I was having a blood transfusion at the same time. And I experienced what at that time my mind and body thought was me dying, as an experience where I couldn’t move, I couldn’t open my eyes, but I was conscious. The important thing with the triangle here is what came in in this moment was nothing to do with the base of the triangle. I wasn’t a mum yet. I didn’t know— well, I was a mum, you know, I wasn’t actively parenting. I didn’t know what was to come still in terms of the isolation, the sleep deprivation. But I had a trauma history.

Nikki Wilson [00:14:44]:
So I had experienced really the loss of a very close family member when I was very young and had kind of— this is, you know, quite— might feel quite morbid to some people. I’d kind of been waiting for it to be my turn to die. So in that moment, my mind-body connected a hard physical experience with a really deep, long-held memory. And I went from zero to hero. I went not quite top of the triangle, but I was definitely next level down. And little did I know that I had what should have been diagnosed PTSD. And it came on very acutely, very strongly for me, which doesn’t actually normally play out for most people. It’s not that kind of normal pattern, but I couldn’t leave my house without a panic attack.

Nikki Wilson [00:15:41]:
I couldn’t fall asleep without my mum telling me I wasn’t going to die. I couldn’t see anybody I loved or knew by a small— apart from a small number of people. My life smashed into a million pieces. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:16:00]:
I am sorry that you had that experience, and I can’t even begin to imagine, but I appreciate you sharing that because I think it helps people kind of see in what different ways this can present. For those that may not have come across the term PTSD, I know it’s quite a common term now, would you mind sharing a little bit more about that?

Nikki Wilson [00:16:20]:
Yeah, of course. So post-traumatic stress disorder, you know, like we were saying We don’t comfortably associate birth or any experience in the perinatal period with trauma because it’s something we choose, isn’t it? Most of us, we choose it and we struggle to sit with the idea that this, this might be experienced. But PTSD is not just experienced by people who’ve been to war. It’s experienced by people who have faced one or multiple high-threat experiences Particularly where they believed themselves or their baby or their loved ones were going to die. It’s a very natural response. It’s in all of us. Any of us could experience this. It’s something that’s very unique to, to our nervous system, but in fact, not just our nervous systems, because animals— you think of rabbits is the best example.

Nikki Wilson [00:17:17]:
somebody gets it. So if they nearly get hit by a car, but they survive, they will shake inordinately for a period of time to clear their nervous system of the fear. Because we’re much more evolved, our nervous system kind of locks down, internalizes, and it, it, we, our body thinks that we’re not safe anymore. So a whole series of mind and body type symptoms play out. I knew I wasn’t under threat anymore logically, but I still felt like someone was stamping on my windpipe all the time. So it’s very hard to understand when you’re in the middle of it. But what’s interesting about trauma and the symptoms of trauma is when people understand them a bit more, they begin to see, oh, do you know, I think what I was experiencing was some trauma symptoms. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:18:10]:
It—

Nikki Wilson [00:18:10]:
and I was told I had anxiety, and, and maybe it did present as anxiety, but it probably— not always, but it may have been your mind and body’s trauma response that was driving that anxious feeling.

Nicky Lowe [00:18:25]:
And so I’m imagining that was— did you say 12 years ago? So there’s a journey that you then went on, and would you mind just at a high level talking about what’s the support that you got that then led you to do this? Was it that there was a lack of support and you were like, right, we need to Or did, did you get the support?

Nikki Wilson [00:18:46]:
So, gosh, we learn a lot, don’t we, in these moments? And again, to kind of name that privilege, I know what— I now work very much in this space. I think it’s really important to hold in mind that, yes, I did have a history of mild, maybe moderate mental health challenges with some depression and anxiety, but they were not life-limiting. And what I was able to experience was something that was very acute and very difficult. But to be here a decade later, pretty much healed with all the right support and able to tell my story— there are so many people who are not in, in that, um, in that privileged position. So for me, when I was, um, when I was really unwell, what I needed was high support from very close loved ones. I had that, so I was really fortunate. There’s very few people I felt safe with, but those I did literally physically carried me. I mean, I remember my husband had to carry me to the toilet to change my sanitary towel and put me back in bed again.

Nikki Wilson [00:19:47]:
So they literally carried me. Then I needed early diagnosis. I didn’t, didn’t get that. And I needed trauma-informed interventions and support. And I didn’t get that. What I was met with was a lot of confusion. No one around me understood what was happening. I had no language for this.

Nikki Wilson [00:20:13]:
All I was able to say was, I don’t think I’m depressed. But because of the way our systems work, and they can only kind of cope with things that fall in the kind of bottom layer of the triangle, the system wants to diagnose you with depression.

Nicky Lowe [00:20:27]:
Yeah.

Nikki Wilson [00:20:27]:
depression. I don’t think I’m depressed. The services that were available on the NHS at the time were very narrow, and I couldn’t access them because of lots of different reasons. Um, but I couldn’t, I couldn’t get that, that support. And then those who were supportive around me, like my GP, who was just the most gorgeous GP— not physically, actually. My husband used to ask me if I fancied him. I was like, no, he’s like 20 years older than me. But he, he just came into my house one day and said, I’ve treated people like you.

Nikki Wilson [00:21:03]:
You’re that type of person who’s going to pretend they’re okay, aren’t you? And he just really gently encouraged me to try the antidepressants. But it took me 6 months for him to— for me to let him— to listen to him in that way. But he also had no idea what was going on. He had no language for trauma. I remember years later being like, do you know what, Dr. Morris, I had PTSD, and him being like, oh right, really? It wasn’t there. And really, it wasn’t for a whole series of events that I won’t bore you with now, but it wasn’t until 2 years later that someone gave me a PTSD screener and I felt angry. I was like, how is it I can match this? In such a classical presentation and for nobody to tell me and for it to be only through sheer good fortune that I have found this route to finally getting help.

Nikki Wilson [00:22:04]:
So that ignited the flame and I was already a charity geek. I’ve worked in the third sector all of my career, so I already was very much kind of in this world. of World for the Third Sector, but it, it gave me a spark that I haven’t ever felt in the organizations I’d worked for prior.

Nicky Lowe [00:22:23]:
Oh gosh, so you use your pain as like your purpose now with your—

Nikki Wilson [00:22:29]:
Yes.

Nicky Lowe [00:22:30]:
And so I’m— I sit here kind of going, I’m actually welling up when you talked about that doctor and your experience of having incredible support, but it’s still not kind of being what you needed in that moment. And it I can, I can feel that. Um, and I, as I say, I’m sorry you went through that experience, but I just thank you for now taking that and, and using it to help others. So if we take your experience and now what you do with your charity to think about, actually, what might people listening need to know? So what is it that maybe somebody that’s gone on that journey, that has found that their mental health in some way has been impacted, but may not have got the language yet, may not have got the support— what, what can we share in this conversation that would be useful for them?

Nikki Wilson [00:23:24]:
Yeah, I do think that awareness starts with understanding. So with Whilst it would be great if culturally we educated one another better, those of us who are able to educate ourselves, I think we should, we should try to be as committed to what we learn about birth. To if we, you know, particularly if mental health is around for you as something that, you know, it’s around. Yeah. It’s known as something you’ve got to look after and start doing a bit of reading.

Nicky Lowe [00:23:58]:
Yeah.

Nikki Wilson [00:23:59]:
It’s not something to be afraid of. A lot of these things, it is scary, but they’re treatable and they’re diagnosable, and you can reach the right support. So do a bit of reading, understand what depression can look like, what anxiety can look like, what trauma symptoms can look like. Um, I think that’s really, really helpful. And, you know, if you’re still sitting in this understanding of, oh, I’ve heard a bit about the baby blues, then I challenge you to just go and read a little bit more. So go to the Maternal Mental Health Alliance website. We’ve got a whole section on there. If it’s trauma more specifically that you’re interested, I co-founded an organization called Make Birth Better, which is very trauma-specific.

Nikki Wilson [00:24:44]:
So visit there and their pages that are kind of quite clear about trauma. But start with understanding, I think, is key. In terms of what else I would want them to know, I know we say it’s okay not to be okay. Again, it feels like an Instagram tile just saying it, doesn’t it? When you’re not okay, you believe you may never be okay again. And it doesn’t matter, particularly if you’re struggling with depression, it does not matter what people say to you. Yeah. They can’t always switch that light on. And you might not be able to find that light inside you to believe it to be true.

Nikki Wilson [00:25:30]:
But take it, take the hope from stories like mine and the stories of the thousands of people I have met since who have found healing, who have found recovery, who have found communities who understand them, and hold somewhere quietly in your heart that you will get better again.

Nicky Lowe [00:25:50]:
Yeah, I love that because I think the greatest gift that we can ever give somebody is hope. You know, you might not be able to know your path out of it at the moment, but just hold on to that thread that there is, there is a way. And I think, as you said, your website has got so many resources, which is brilliant, so many free resources. Um, and as you were talking, it was making me think of my own journey And I could really relate to you kind of going, I’m just gonna meditate the—

Nikki Wilson [00:26:21]:
Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:26:22]:
Because I also, my eldest is 13 and a half, and I remember coming across hypnobirthing and going, I am gonna have, ’cause I remember Beyoncé going that just her pregnant, her birth experience was the most empowering, animalistic. She felt this incredible power. And I was like, that’s the kind of birth I’m gonna have. It’s gonna be this awakening of my feminine power. And I went into it going, Yeah, I’m going to do the hypnobirthing. This is, you know, it’s— everybody kept saying it’s the most natural thing in the world. I was like, yes! And I was like you, from, you know, incredibly privileged. I had exactly the resources I needed to be able to, I thought, have this amazing, incredible experience.

Nicky Lowe [00:27:05]:
And I was blindsided by just how disempowering that experience was and how Yeah, scary it was at points, and, um, a lot of complications. And I had been somebody that actually had never had any mental health issues and actually prided myself on my mental and emotional resilience. Like, I, I was like, I am gonna nail this. So I think it literally pulled the rug out from under my feet. And it just felt like I was in freefall. And I think there were different parts to that in terms of obviously the hormonal changes, the fact that I had a complicated birth and my son had complications after it and not— and just feeling like this. I am taking care of the most fragile thing in the world. I am 100% or felt 100% responsible.

Nikki Wilson [00:28:06]:
Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:28:07]:
With no understanding, and that level of just complete lack of feeling resourced was really alien to me because I’d been somebody that had been incredibly resourceful naturally and could lean on resources around me. And I remember at my twelve month, so the one year. check-in, and the— they’re not district nurses, health visitors, aren’t they? Coming out, these 2 amazing ladies. And my son was doing great by that point. We’d had a very tricky first year in and out of hospital, but by that point he was doing great. Um, and they asked you to complete the questionnaire where it’s the questions on your mental health.

Nikki Wilson [00:28:56]:
They’re called the Hooli questions.

Nicky Lowe [00:28:57]:
Yeah. Oh, Hooli. Wow.

Nikki Wilson [00:28:59]:
Hooli. I think that’s the person that Yeah, the Hooty questions, the 3 questions. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:29:05]:
And I, because I work in the area of psychology, I kind of was like, they are going to be assessing me as well. And so felt this degree of needing to perform and go, no, I’m fine. Just like your doctor’s like, you’re one of these people that, you know, isn’t going to admit. And I knew I wasn’t okay, but I also knew it wasn’t depression. Like, I knew that much about myself. So I remember, and the health visitors actually said to me, you’re actually the kind of mum that we worry about the most. And I found that really difficult to hear because I don’t do vulnerability very well. I was like, I’m a strong, capable woman.

Nicky Lowe [00:29:44]:
Nobody needs to worry about me. Like, I, I could feel it prickled me, not in a— like, I didn’t get defensive, but I was like, oh, I’m noticing my reaction to this. And when I completed it, me going, I am not feeling great, emotionally, but I also knew it wasn’t, um, it wasn’t a depression and it wasn’t anxiety. There was something else going on. And me trying to articulate to them almost that pyramid, like, there are a number of things at the base of my pyramid that are contributing to this, and I need you to look at the whole piece, not just make an assumption about where I’m at. I’m feeling that it was quite a reductive conversation. And, and so I love that you, you understand the nuance and the complexities around that. And I also, I know that a lot of my audience are high-achieving women that are used to being very resourceful, in control, might have like over-functioning kind of tendencies of maybe want to be, be perfect, try hard, have that hyper-independence potentially.

Nicky Lowe [00:30:50]:
And I’ve seen for myself how that can contribute to not necessarily any mental health issues, but not necessarily feeling able to voice it or admit it or ask for the support in a way that feels safe. So if there was somebody listening that might be like that, like, actually I do struggle but I don’t want to admit it or don’t know how to admit it, what, what advice would you give them?

Nikki Wilson [00:31:18]:
Oh, thank you for what you’ve just said. It was so resonant, and I think it’ll resonate with so many people, um, and particularly that piece around responsibility. And, and it’s a very acute experience for a lot of people, very naturally acute experience for a lot of people, that kind of overwhelming sense of responsibility, particularly if there’s trauma around it.

Nicky Lowe [00:31:41]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Nikki Wilson [00:31:41]:
It can get like really heightened. Um, I had to learn that there is strength in vulnerability, and I didn’t like learning it the way I learned it, and I didn’t want to believe it. I could say it to people— again, great Instagram title— but did I really believe it? And I do now. So I don’t pride myself on being okay anymore. I pride myself in talking about knowing my toolkit of the things I need to stay well. They’re things I already needed, but I need to do even more of now. Um, and I actually flipped the script quite a lot, and I’m sure lots of the people who listen to your podcast will follow all kinds of different people around leadership. But, and I know she’s, she’s highly potentially overquoted, but I have read a lot of Brené Brown’s work, and I also discovered that compassion-based mindfulness in the mix of all of the things I did to get better.

Nikki Wilson [00:33:01]:
And I truly believe that the leaders that can show up to work and be vulnerable, and show that they’re vulnerable, fallible, feeling human beings, are better leaders. And now I think I lead better than I did, because I’ve really learned to expose that side of me. I’ve really learned to say to my team when I’m not okay, to explain to them the way I know my brain works and what it needs. And yeah, we have to ask ourselves, why did we ever think there was strength in not showing vulnerability? Why did we think resilience was based on, you know, how much you don’t crack under pressure? this kind of really misheld belief that we, we don’t all adopt, but a certain flavor of us females adopt it strongly at a very young age. And at some point, it is likely to cause things to come crashing down.

Nicky Lowe [00:34:11]:
Yeah, and I, and I’d absolutely agree. And I think that probably leaves us, leads us beautifully into the work that I know that we’re both passionate about as well, is supporting this in the workplace. So I actually this morning was on a call. I get to do some amazing work with a financial services organization, and they automatically, when somebody discloses to their line manager that they’re going to become a parent, they get access to coaching with me, but also the line manager gets access. So they have line manager coaching on how to help this person transition onto parental leave and then back into the workplace, which is incredible. But I think what a lot of line managers, if they have yet to become a parent or aren’t a parent or have been lucky to have a pretty positive parenting experience, may not have insights into what we’re talking about here. So what would you want workplaces and line managers to know, and what specifically can they do?

Nikki Wilson [00:35:16]:
Yeah, it’s a really good question. And I think we have to really fairly hold in context all of the different ways this can play out in terms of the experiences your manager may or may not have had. And let’s face it, no two stories are the same. So, they won’t have had, they won’t have experienced what you’ve experienced, or it’d be very rare for that to be the case. So, I think the main—

Nicky Lowe [00:35:39]:
Yeah.

Nikki Wilson [00:35:40]:
Peace is to ask ourselves, what is stopping me from starting a conversation? What is standing in the way of me genuinely asking someone, how are you finding this experience? And is it because we’re not making time in our diaries because we’re always busy? Is it because we’re afraid? to be vulnerable and to ask vulnerable questions? Is it because we don’t think we’re very good at listening, and when people do disclose things, we panic and we don’t know what to do with them? I think you’ve got to do a bit of actual exploring, because it doesn’t matter how much training you give people in how to have safe conversations, um, and how to start conversations, you helicoptering into that organization and providing coaching just shows the support structures that are needed to help people to have those conversations. So, I think it is doing a bit of kind of digging, what’s stopping you from asking? And also, I think challenging that workplace stigma that you won’t know but does exist around you, more likely than not. You know, 40% of people won’t talk about their mental health issues at work because they think if they do, it will cost them their job.

Nicky Lowe [00:36:59]:
Yeah.

Nikki Wilson [00:36:59]:
compromise their career. 40% of people say that they’re less likely to hire someone if they disclose their mental health problems. There is bias within you, within your culture, and I don’t assign blame to that because we all hold that bias, but we have to be willing to challenge it if we’re going to start those conversations at all. Because You have to believe that it’s okay for someone to have a mental health problem at work. You have to believe that as an organization and know that your organization is going to want to help to resource them to get better. And otherwise, those conversations can be relatively pointless. I would also say that you don’t ever have to be an expert in any of these things. You, you know, you heard my story and I talk about that lovely Dr.

Nikki Wilson [00:37:56]:
Morris. You hear this a lot when people talk about their birth and their maternity experiences. They’ll name one person who said one thing in one particular moment that helped them to feel safe. Now, you can’t guarantee that you’re going to be that angel on the day that says the right thing at the right time. But what you can guarantee, if you’re up for it, is that you’re there to ask the question, and that you’re there to ask sensitive questions and listen sensitively, and not be the expert, not claim to be. No one’s asking you to be a therapist, but to be willing to hold a bit of safe space is probably the most important thing any line manager can do.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:38]:
I love that. And you actually provide free resources to organisations, don’t you?

Nikki Wilson [00:38:43]:
Yeah, we do.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:45]:
Do you mind sharing what you offer? Because you do some free resources and then you do other kind of paid resources as well.

Nikki Wilson [00:38:51]:
100%. So, basically, there’s a gap, right? Not all workplaces, and we tend to index here and just think about the big companies that can afford a lot, you know, that can afford to invest, whereas 95% of people don’t work for those big companies, right? But there is a big gap in the trends towards making workplaces more family-friendly, changing our policies to be more flexible, having mental health first aiders. Why have we not integrated perinatal mental health into any of this? I do know why, but it’s a gap and it’s one that’s actually quite easy to fill. So we started The Parent Gap in collaboration with a number of other brilliant individuals and organisations last year. If you just go to theparentgap— is it .co.uk or .org.uk? I’m just going to check. These things are never fully held in my brain. It is .co.uk. So if you go to theparentgap.co.uk, you’ll see in there that we have created a set of resources that are free to download, that includes a guide for managers, and a guide for HR professionals on the things you can start doing differently when it comes to perinatal mental health.

Nikki Wilson [00:40:10]:
Then if you’ve got the resource to spend £500, which not everybody does, but if you did, then you can get a bundle of more than 10 resources within which you’ve got risk assessments for how to assess pregnancy, support directly for people working in your workplace, upskilling on signposts of who you can tell people about the charities and the other support structures that are available to them, etc. And then obviously the more you work with us, the more, the more close we can, we can work with you in terms of specializing around particular talks or working with HR managers on policy, for example. But the Parent Gap was born out of the fact that most of us don’t work for companies like the one that you’re working for. That’s a rare kind of bit of gold, actually. And we’ve got to fill the gap, because this is not just a healthcare issue. This is a workplace issue. Most people who go through the perinatal period in whatever format are in employment and return to employment.

Nicky Lowe [00:41:17]:
So I feel very passionately that there is a strong moral obligation that employers do take this Seriously, what you’re saying there is lean in to have conversations, even if you don’t feel an expert. Try and create a safe space for somebody to share how they’re doing, and just by listening and asking some compassionate questions with curiosity, that can be helpful. If somebody’s like, I’m fine, as we said, we’ve been there, like, not necessarily wanting to admit, and there’s good reasons why we might not want to do that in the workplace. What could you recommend a line manager or colleague looks out for that might indicate that actually some extra support might be needed here?

Nikki Wilson [00:42:01]:
Yes, I think you have to signal in lots of different ways within your business. So, is there a section on the intranet about— I mean, do people still have intranets? We don’t have one, but back in the day, we had an intranet. But, you know, you need to have within all the spaces that are talking about parenting, there needs to be mental health conversations. When there’s posters on the back of the toilet door, whether it’s free resources, whether it’s a come and ask us any questions webinar once a year, you’ve got to signal in lots of different ways that it’s available, because then that person who may never want to disclose to you can go and seek that information themselves. That is still incredibly powerful for an organisation to be modelling. It’s okay to stay anonymous. You know, you can come and seek this support in the way that suits you. And then if you know you’ve got a coper on your hands, and someone likes to pretend that they’re okay, but for their own, as you say, often good reasons.

Nikki Wilson [00:43:07]:
And I’m not saying that everyone should feel safe enough to want to talk to their line manager, quite frankly. Many people We’ll never get there. But the things to watch, I would say, is over-masking. So a lot of people kind of being very British. No, no, I am okay. I’m okay. I’m okay. Like over-reassuring you that they’re okay.

Nikki Wilson [00:43:25]:
I like to ask people, how are you today? Not how are you?

Nicky Lowe [00:43:30]:
Hmm.

Nikki Wilson [00:43:31]:
Keep asking the question, how are you today? And acknowledging that that person is most likely to be holding a lot together in one place. And it’s also partly about being there to catch them when they fall. You may never be able to scaffold around that person enough that they don’t slip, but when they do, and if they do, how are you going to catch them? As a business, as a line manager, as a friend. You’ve got to know what that looks like for your workplace.

Nicky Lowe [00:44:08]:
I love that, because as you say, it’s, it’s not necessarily their job to rescue them. And even there is a duty of care, clearly, but line managers are not therapists. So, you know, then they are not the person necessarily that can, that can help. But being aware of it— and it, as you were talking, it was making me aware of a client that I worked with and number of years ago, she’d— I coached her on her return to work after her third child, and she was like, done it twice before, it was absolutely fine. And actually, her third child, the return to work was really, really difficult for her, and it blindsided her because she’d done it twice before almost effortlessly. And one of the signs for her that she wasn’t coping was she it— because it felt so overwhelming and so difficult for her, she decided she wanted to map out 12 months of meal planning. So she had literally gone through every day, so 365 days of the year, mapped out what they were going to eat and had placed online food orders. And it was one of those signs where you’re like, on the one hand, highly efficient, like incredible.

Nicky Lowe [00:45:26]:
On the other hand, it was highly unusual.

Nikki Wilson [00:45:29]:
Hmm.

Nicky Lowe [00:45:30]:
And so just asking the question about what else could be going on here, you know, that is helpful to a degree, but it is unusual. Therefore, there’s a— could be a sense of there’s a need for control, there’s a need for order. So what is fueling that? So Again, we’re not here to judge. That actually may be highly functional, highly useful, but it is unusual. So just listening out for— I’m thinking, like, as a line manager, what are the signs that you know this person perhaps before?

Nikki Wilson [00:46:04]:
Yes, yes.

Nicky Lowe [00:46:06]:
Has their behaviour shifted, and what might that be indicating? And as you say, just asking the questions and being there to support. And Again, I would absolutely— we’ll put, put it all in the show notes, but it would direct people to your free resources around this because I think there’s so much there that gives them the language, the understanding to start to get, you know, more compassionately curious around this. So for people that want to hear more about your free resources, both from the Maternal Mental Health Alliance and The Parent Gap, where would you direct them to?

Nikki Wilson [00:46:41]:
Yeah, thank you. We would love it if you came to visit us at The Parent Gap. So you just need to go to theparentgap.co.uk. Then for the Maternal Mental Health Alliance, it’s just that— pop maternalmentalhealthalliance.org into your browser, and we should come up there. Also, you can contact me on LinkedIn, Nikki Wilson, 2 K’s and an I, one L in Wilson. Just drop me a DM and more I’m always really happy to chat to anyone that’s got some questions or anything they want to chat about.

Nicky Lowe [00:47:13]:
Brilliant. Well, thank you for joining me. Thank you for sharing your story, and also thank you for the really important work that you’re doing in the world.

Nikki Wilson [00:47:19]:
Thank you, Nicky.

Nicky Lowe [00:47:22]:
If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Wisdom for Working Mums, I’d love for you to share it on social media or with the amazing women in your life. I’d also love to connect with you, so head over to illuminate-group.co.uk, where you’ll find ways to stay in touch. And if this episode resonated with you, one of the best ways to support the show is by subscribing and leaving a review on iTunes. Your review helps other women discover this resource, so together we can lift each other up as we rise. So thanks for listening. Until next time, take care.