Nicky Lowe [00:00:06]:

Hi. I’m Nikki Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom for Working Women’s Podcast Show, where I share insights and interviews that support women to combine their family, work and life in a more successful and sustainable way. Welcome to another episode of the Wisdom Full Working Moms podcast show. And today, I have an absolute treat in store for you. because I have the pleasure of talking with a truly remarkable woman who is on a mission to revolutionize the way we negotiate, both in the boardroom, and around the kitchen table. And we all know that negotiation can be a daunting prospect where you’re aiming for that world promotion or trying to strike a balance between queer career and family or simply navigating the everyday challenges that come from being a working mom But fear not, my guest today has been there, done that, and Wies here to guide us through it all. So get ready to be in fired as we dive into the world of negotiation with the incredible Reece Bratbury, the driving force behind women in negotiation, This is a top lawyer turned HR director, turned coach, turned consultant, and she has spent the best part of a decade working and living across the world and is now back in her native Netherlands where she works with an international set of clients. through her coaching practice, the win way, and the winning with Wies Bratby Podcast, she helps corporate women to proactively navigate and negotiate their careers and salaries. Vases are sought after keynote speaker and workshop trainer, inspiring women to ask the everything they want, need, and deserve in their lives. How good does that sound? And in this episode, we’ll uncover the secret to overcoming self doubt and finding the confidence to negotiate effectively. We’ll also debunk some of the common myths surrounding negotiation. and explore the impact it can have on pay equity and discover how negotiation skills can improve our lives both in and outside of the workplace. As a fellow working mom herself, Vese understands the delicate art of maintaining that elusive work like balance, and she’ll be sharing practical strategies help us to thrive in our careers whilst also being present for our families. So friend, let’s get ready to be inspired, uplifted, and armed with the negotiation skills you need to conquer any challenge that comes your way. This is about to take us on a journey that will leave you feeling empowered and ready to negotiate like a boss. Without further ado, let’s dive into this captivating conversation with a 1 and only visa back re right here on Wisdom for Working Mums. And welcome, Viese. Thank you for joining me on the Wisdom For Working Women’s podcast show. For those that don’t know about you and your work, you tell us a bit about your journey and how women in negotiation kind of came into the world?

Wies Bratby [00:03:09]:

Oh, yeah. Well, thank you so much first up for inviting me for having me over and allowing me to pontificate about all the things I care about. I truly, truly appreciate it. and yeah. So what brought me here, is what’s one of those cases whereby I think it was Steve Jobs who talked about being able to connect the dots, right, afterwards, basically. And that’s very much the case with me. I believe I, had started my career in law, and that was after reading the book, getting to yes, which sounds like a self help book, which very much isn’t a self help book. It’s the standard work on negotiation. And like I said, I was 18 when I read that, obsessed with it, thought I was gonna changed the world by having everybody negotiate all their problems away. Joined a law firm, because I believe that was the best next step for me after thoroughly investigating all the different options, which was actually a a kick start for the work I was doing later. But anyway, I joined this law firm goal incredibly depressed pretty quickly because it was so not the environment for me. I did learn to, negotiate really well, though. but when I left with a massive burnout, I kind of pivoted my life, my career completely, by moving to a different continent. Asia where I set up HR. So also my career took kind of a a different term. for, so I set up HR for a very large company, focusing on the recruitment and career development senior management. And when I then moved back to Europe a couple years later, I realized after having spoken to thousands of my colleagues around the world, literally thousands because I was running a large, what do you call them, workshops or negotiation for all of my colleagues. And there was a very consistent pattern that the women in those groups would say, oh my goodness, this is so important, and I suck at it, basically. I’m terrible at it. And so, what I then ended doing was putting all those pieces together, namely the negotiation piece, right, the obsession there, the HR piece, and the fact that I’m a raging feminist, And I built women in negotiation, which is my company through which I now teach women in corporates to negotiate their careers and their salaries. So very long story short, all of those different individual pieces that don’t seem to really jive or, you know, gel together actually did in the end or, contribute to what I’m doing today. So, yeah, that’s that’s that’s the story of when.

Nicky Lowe [00:05:59]:

that. And, yeah, actually, as you say, you can see how the join’s dots join, and I love that Steve job talk that he gives that you can’t join them looking forward. You can only join them looking backwards. And as you look back, I can see how they would all link together. And as you say now, you help women — ask for and get what they want in work and life. And I love that we’re gonna be diving into this conversation because we had a a kind of pre conversation a few weeks ago, and I came off that conversation really inspired and just really looking forward to this chat. So if we kind of start with this piece around negotiation, just generally, what in your experience are some of the misconceptions or perhaps myth about what negotiation is and what challenges people face with it. Yeah.

Wies Bratby [00:06:48]:

Sure. we’re actually starting with that piece that I mentioned just before, right, where all my colleagues were sharing, oh, I’m not good at it. Right? I realize it’s important, but I suck at it. I think that’s the biggest misconception that I hear from women when it comes to negotiation. And it’s a myth. It’s totally not true, and don’t just take it from me. It’s the research that backs me up there. because one of the fun things about negotiation is that you can fly the heck out of it. Right? And so, when we look at the research, we see a very consistent pattern that women end up getting better results on average than their male counterparts. And I believe that is very, logical that makes a ton of sense because because as women, we are socialized to take care of others, right, to look out for others, to take care of them first. And so Wies we negotiate in the context of work. So on behalf of our company, on behalf of our team members, on behalf of our boss, even when we negotiate for our kids, right, when we when we go to bat for them, when we advocate for them, we are doing what is expected of us, and so we end up with great results. However, we, it it becomes a lot more difficult when we have to negotiate for ourselves, right, because that does go against what is expected of us. We shouldn’t think about ourselves. We shouldn’t put ourselves first. We definitely shouldn’t say, hey, I’m great. You should give me Wies Z. Right? So the whole myth of I’m not good at negotiation is absolutely not true. just that there is a little bit of a hurdle when it comes to negotiating for yourself. So that’s that’s one. Another myth, let me think, that I often hear, oh, yeah. It’s that it doesn’t matter. It’s not so important. You know, it’s they’re they’re such a hurdle for women to do this that often I hear, well, you know, what are we talking about negotiating salary? Well, it’s a couple hundred bucks a month. You know, I’m not gonna go through this horrible process of, you know, having this conversation, having this negotiation just for you know, a couple of bucks a month. Right? And that, again, is a complete and other misconception. negotiation, is incredibly important in your career, not just for your salary. A, because those couple hundred bucks a month add up over time. If you throw in compound interest, we’re talking for most women in the western world ultimately 100 of 1000 to sometimes 1,000,000 of pounds more over the course of their career. It really does add up tremendously. but there’s a lot more that you miss out on if you don’t negotiate, career opportunities I believe that on average, women’s, career trajectories just stay behind guys because we don’t raise our hand. because we don’t say, I want this. We don’t negotiate for great career opportunities, for stretch projects, for interesting you know, assignments. Right? and so that’s connected to it. there’s a whole lot more. There’s health benefits when you negotiate. at work and also at the kitchen table, there is, there is a, yeah. Well, let let’s put it this way. If you don’t do it, you compromise your health. Right? And I could, I could talk about that in and of itself for hours, and I’m sure that we will, in a bit, but that’s also an important piece. So the whole It doesn’t matter, right? just isn’t true. You lose out on a lot more than just those 100 of 1000, 2,000,000 of pounds, which you know, as my very British husband would always say better than the kicking of teeth, right, already. But there’s a lot more.

Nicky Lowe [00:10:37]:

Yeah. And another point because you’ve just alluded to something there, which I think you’ve also got a very powerful insight in. In terms of the differences in kind of culture because you’ve talked about European versus Asia, but also kind of you’ve got different culture to your husband. So you get to see the British kind of insights Can you say the differences in in kind of, yeah, the different cultures and how we negotiate?

Wies Bratby [00:11:05]:

I do. I do. I I work with a very international, group of clients. So they’re literally from all over the world. and so, yes, I do get sort of 1st row seats into those differences. Obviously, they then work, you know, in international environment. So they have you know, bosses and and managers and and, you know, etcetera from from other places. what I always come back to is something that so I studied this, at length. I did a semester on, cultural differences in negotiation, back in the day. And my main takeaway from all that time that I spend, right, studying this, was that ultimately what we have in Coleman is much stronger than what separates us, right, how we’re different. And so, yes, of course, there are subtle nuanced differences in the delivery, you know, during a negotiation. But, like I said, what we have in common, right, where where we share, approaches and and ways of doing things that is ultimately much more important So I wouldn’t get too hung up about the fact that, oh, my boss is from XYZ and that you know, means that I, as a person from this different country, right, really struggle with that. To give you one example, I’m Dutch. I’m incredibly blunt and direct and in your face. I haven’t knowingly been hindered by that, even when talking or negotiating with people from cultures that are a lot more indirect, right, a lot more subtle where where there’s a lot more context, basically, necessary for subtle hints. so, yeah, it’s it’s there. There are differences. I don’t want to, minimize that completely, but, but there are, the it’s let’s not overstate it. Let’s put it that way.

Nicky Lowe [00:13:02]:

Love that. Okay. Brilliant. So sorry. I interrupted your kind of misconceptions and myths around kind of negotiation.

Wies Bratby [00:13:09]:

Oh, yeah. I have one more to think of I have one more that I that I thought about. So if you if you don’t mind me sharing, and and the reason that I’m, quite keen to talk about this is cause this is something that I, hear from women always. And it’s and it’s women. Right? So the other pieces, I’ll hear from guys as well, but this one is specifically strong for women. And again, logically so because of how we’re raised, And that is the fear that’s picking up for yourself, that negotiating for yourself, right, will negatively impact the relationship that you have. that that carefully constructed, you know, relationship that you have with your boss will all come crumbling down the moment that you raise your and you say, you know what? We need to talk. And I’m it it it really is a misconception. Yes. It’s true that you can do things wrong and that you can get, you know, yeah, that you can get things wrong. But across the board, what I see is that when you negotiate in what we refer to as the win win method, right, of negotiation, which is really focused on getting an outcome that works for both sides, which is the way to negotiate in today’s day and age right, long gone are the days that we just, you know, the, the question is who screams the loudest and who is, you know, physically the strongest. We don’t work like that anymore. It’s all about win win. And what I see is that when you negotiate that way, that actually the relationship becomes a whole lot stronger. I had, just just one, one example. I had a client this week comment on. So she’s a consultant She’s a she’s a partner in the consultancy firm, and she has joined a startup. and you would, think that making that jump and negotiating really hard for herself because, obviously, she had a lot to give up on, right, in terms of being a partner in a very one of the big, you know, consulting firms that joining a startup, yeah, that she would have to give up a lot of her salary. In fact, she is making more than she has before. But that is down to a process about 3 or 4 weeks of negotiating really, really well for herself. And I was about to use the word hard which she has in a way in the sense that she increased the original offer by 75%. She tripled the equity part of the of the deal. Right? So she has negotiated really hard for herself and got really great results and you would think that maybe after such a lengthy and thorough and hard set of negotiations that, you know, there was some kind of negative effect on the relationship but the actual opposite is true. The thing that she kept commenting on was not the the financial results you got. It was that the three partners in this startup have all individually come to her and said, we’re so excited about you joining us. We’re so key for this relationship to work or so, you know, they were really happy with her. The relationship was stronger as a result of the negotiation process than it was before. So for everybody who thinks, o m g, I can’t do this, right, I can’t go to my boss and say, I want, I deserve, I need, right, Please don’t worry about that. If you do it right, you can improve the relationship.

Nicky Lowe [00:16:42]:

I love that. And I know you’ve got so many examples like that that really bring this to life as well, which I think are brilliant. So you’ve talked about some of those challenges there, and it’s almost what in my language I was thinking about how is women Wies socialized to be kind of nerve and collaborative and that we can sometimes create the narrative around negotiation that it’s adversarial or it is you know, challenging or that we’re gonna be perceived as too assertive. And therefore, you know, that puts us in a negative light. And what I’m hearing is actually, you know, it builds more respect and people can actually kind of see our worth, respect our worth, and see the skills that we bring to the table by doing it. 100%. Yeah. So what you’ve talked there about actually how we can that actually how we negotiate is so important, and you’ve talked there about the win win. Would you mind telling me a little bit more about that and I know, obviously, this is the work that you do in detail with your client, but at, like, a high level, what might be some of the things that we need to be aware of if we are gonna negotiate well?

Wies Bratby [00:17:52]:

what we should be thinking about.

Nicky Lowe [00:17:54]:

Yeah. The the

Wies Bratby [00:17:55]:

sort of the, are you talking about challenges that we encounter?

Nicky Lowe [00:17:58]:

And challenges and what we can do about those. So is it mindset? Is it kind of strategies that we might need to be thinking about? What are if those are some of the challenges that we face, like, how do we navigate those?

Wies Bratby [00:18:12]:

Very good question. and it is it is both of those. I I have found that the main, challenge that my clients encounter is their own mindset. and their own ambitions, or lack thereof the the the that they don’t aim high enough for themselves, basically. And I think that is the result of that, you know, being socialized in order to ask for yourself. Right? It’s uncouth to to, to speak up for yourself. we’ve gotta be nice, and there’s this sense that during negotiations, right, that it can’t be nice. And so we struggle with that whole asking piece, the the research backs that up as well that we’re just not ambitious enough. that we expect paid less for the same work as guys, not because we think we’re less good at it, right, that we have less confidence in our selves. It’s simply that we don’t believe we can ask for more. and so those are those are some mindset issues that are really deep inner work, so to say that you, that you have to do. I think one piece there about the whole speaking up for yourself, right? And and that’s a nice way of saying bragging or, you know, showing all space which is another issue that, that women often struggle with because we’re not supposed to, right? We’re not supposed to do that Wies a guy shows up like that, we say, oh, he’s confident when a woman does it, we say, oh, she’s so arrogant. So that whole concept of speaking up about the results that you’re getting is obviously difficult for us. So I think one of the the the sort of a trick way of changing that is really just reframing bragging as sharing as talking about sharing with the other side what you are capable of doing so that, they can utilize if, you know, what you share with them, all the things that you’re great at, right, they can realize that in the future. I mean, how are they supposed to know that you can do that if you don’t tell them. Right? So so really just looking at that whole concept that of speaking up about what you’re good, at, as sharing that information, which which ties into the expectation, right, women? And I think we can take that further. Right? So, for example, the whole idea of asking for ourselves is not done. If you reframe that that you the the process of negotiation or this conversation, right, in which you’re asking for yourself, if you reframe that into, focusing on the other side. And instead of, right, focusing on you and I want I need, I must, etcetera. But instead, you get wildly curious about the other side and you get wildly curious about what it is that they need in day 1, then you are, you know, it’s a little more palpable for the other side. Right? People love when you get wildly curious about them. it ties into the stereotype of women, you know, caring about the other side, but what we find is that as long as you make sure, that at the end of that whole investigation into what the other side wants, you also share what you want and then you engage in the creative process of figuring out a solution that works for both of you, you’re golden. Right? So all these He’ll work against us. We can use them in our favor.

Nicky Lowe [00:21:44]:

And it’s just making me think as you’re talking, please, about an experience that I had very early on in my corporate career. And there was, me and a a girl called Nicola she was Nicola a couple more at the time. She’s Nicola Lundstead now that I’ll give her a shout out. We we both worked, for software company, for an IT company, a technology company down in London as students. So we did a 4 year degree. We did a year out in industry and work for this technology company. And we both got invited back at the end of our degree to come and work for the organization got taken on on effectively a graduate salary. And a couple of years into kind of working for that company, Nicola went to her boss. And basically, negotiated for she was like, look, I’m doing the job of, you know, my peers, but you are paying me significantly less. And went in and had this negotiation that effectively just doubled our salary overnight. And I say our salary, because what they did is they went, oh, if we’re paying Nicola, we’ve also gotta pay Nicky because that’s only fair. And through her negotiation, she got my salary doubled. And that was such a powerful kind of moment in my career that, a, I’m it hadn’t occurred to me to ask for more. which was interesting. Yeah. And even if I had, I would never have expected to just have my salary doubled overnight. plus our on target earnings were, like, significant, you know, this revolutionized, like, my earning potential. And I Wies, like, 23, 24, and the ripple effect by her doing that, it kind of by default, I had my salary increased. And so that impact, you know, you talk about being a raging feminist, and it’s like, actually, but if we each do this, the shift that we make fit other as well by doing that? 100%.

Wies Bratby [00:23:50]:

Let’s normalize this. Right? And so I mean, I love there’s so many lessons, right, takeaways from from that experience, I imagine. One of them, the first thing I was like, hey, yeah, hashtags, sisterhood. Right? Like, well done, Nicola, for, you know, for doing this for herself, but in her wake, right, helping you and undoubtedly others as well. I think it’s incredibly important. I always tell my clients, right, you don’t have to take a world on your shoulders. You’ve you’ve got enough on your plate as is. And I do believe that in you negotiating for yourself, you’re normalizing that process. And if you can at all, right, take your sisters with you. And so it, you know, inspire them, show them just by the example that you’re setting, right, inspire them to do the same, help them hold their hand, right, give them a kick up a bomb when they need to do this. It’s so freaking important. And there is yeah. There I love this story so much, and I’m so happy that it, you know, it happened so early on in your career because that you know, message or that lesson, you then take with you for the rest of your career. And also, again, you know, we talked about compound interest early on, The earlier you start with proactively negotiating IE earning more than before, right, the better it is. obviously for, for the rest of your career, because you’re never gonna go under it. You’re never gonna go, you know, and earn less than that. So it’s only, you know, that upward trajectory is there.

Nicky Lowe [00:25:19]:

Absolutely. And Nicholas, still a good friend of mine. That was over 20 years ago. Wies we’re still kind of good friends. She now has got kind of a very senior role in a big technology company Wies doing phenomenally well for herself. And as you can, you know, from that story, you would expect that. but I it got me wondering about you and your stories about, was there a moment where you ended up going, I’ve got to step into my negotiation power. Or is it always been part of kind of just you and your personality and you say your your Dutch are quite direct? Has it happened by chance, or have you kind of had specific moments that have kind of forced you into becoming a great negotiation?

Wies Bratby [00:26:03]:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m so happy that you’re asking this because, leaving this story out of the introduction felt a little bit, unfair, but you know, in in the interest of time, I, I skipped it, but glad we’re talking about it now because, you know, the interesting thing is that you know, exactly as you said, I didn’t realize, that I had to negotiate. That was very much, the case for me as well. which is funny considering that I went into law because I was so obsessed with negotiation. I even knew how to do it. I’ve been trained, you know, throughout my studies to, to do it. and so there was that. but also, Wies I, you know, I didn’t realize that I had to do it just like you. Right? I didn’t realize coming into, my law firm that there was an opportunity to negotiate. I I famously didn’t as a result of that, and I’m saying famously, because of the double TED talk that started off with this story, where I saw what they offered me. And I was like, I’ll sign on the dotted line. Like, like, like, they they might just try to I’m just gonna sign here. Right? They even gave me the opportunity to take it home and sort of study it and think about it. Right? But I was like, no. No. I’ll take it. Thank you very much. And so I did. I, didn’t negotiate there. Dan, started speaking to my, coworkers and found out that others, the men, were making more money and not because they were better than me, but because they had asked I had simply neglected to us because I didn’t realize that you were supposed to. Right? So I didn’t do it then. Got extremely unhappy. with that because of my whole sort of sense of, you know, equality, right, that had always been an important thing to me. And so I felt really horrible about myself. I, I took very much responsibility for this. I, I didn’t blame anyone but myself. but vow to do things differently in the future. And so when I left the firm, and joined a new company, I negotiated the heck out of that and increased the original offer by 35% plus, importantly, really shaped the role. And so that experience of first figuring out, right, when I sort of let or when I was still studying and figuring out what do I want to do with my life with a law degree? There’s so many things you can do. So figuring out the process of, okay, what is my best next step? combined with this experience that I later had joining this large company where I really shaped the role. I took control of it, and I completely reshaped it from the original offer, plus then negotiating it. Right? Those are all little puzzle pieces as well for what, you know, ended up being the work that I do now because I don’t in my in in Wies, right, in the the coaching program that I have. We don’t just focus on that last piece, the negotiation. That comes at the end of, I Wies say like 10% of the process. 90% is how do you end up, like, how do you enter the negotiation room? Right? How strong is your case? How happy are you with, with the role that you’re gonna be doing? How happy are you with with with that whole setup. Right? And so there’s a ton that you can do always, and I really mean that always, there’s a ton you can do in shaping the role. And when, when 2 things happen, a, when you increase the responsibilities, when you as I call it, blow up the rule, right, really stretch it in every possible direction. it becomes a bigger role and therefore better paid. Right? And the other piece is that when you stretch it, when you shape it, you shape it to what you are perfect and great at doing and what you’re excited about. So obviously you commit harder, so to say, to the role, but also they shape it around you, right, rather than you trying to pretzel your way into little books that they have in mind. Right? This is the role. This is what you need to do. You are shaping, or together with the other side, I call it co creation. Together with the company, right, you shape the role around you. So the exact opposite. Now that obviously means that you enter that whole negotiation process in a lot stronger position because you were going in Wies, alright, you know, I’m the only person that can do this job. Right? You don’t have any competition. you use, quote, unquote, use, right, every part of you. So it’s a little easier then to negotiate a great setup. And so bring this back your original question. Like, this is all the result of my own experiences here where it became a whole lot easier negotiating a big increase once, you know, I was the only person they were talking to and the role was so perfect for me. Right? So all of this is what we now use in in the work that we do, all those pieces, come back for all of my clients. and it it leads to great outcomes. Right? The the salary increases are insane, but also I don’t, you know, I’m a I’m a bit of a hippie. I, I really don’t care so much about the money. I, I care about what the salary these, you know, these incredible comb packages can do for my clients. but more importantly, or the bit that I really get excited about Wies having them go, oh my goodness. This is my dream role. Oh my goodness. This is so Like, this is wonderful. Right? That whole excitement around a role rather than just the package is is, yeah, why I do this work.

Nicky Lowe [00:31:49]:

And also that piece where your self esteem and self respect goes, there she is. Like, yes. Yeah. 100%

Wies Bratby [00:31:59]:

really working in your zone of genius, really doing work that you get excited about, that that you are really great at, that you get a lot of positive feedback, you know, on. Like, in my in my law firm, I was in the Rome environment. There wasn’t anything wrong with them. There wasn’t anything wrong with me. It was just it was not a match. Right? And every day, I felt stupid. I felt like I wasn’t good enough. I felt like, you know, it was trash, basically. And then joining the company where this role Wies shaped around all the things I love doing and that I was great at, that I was a natural at, that I was telling to that, right, innately so. It was a complete, you know, different experience. Instead of swimming upstream, I felt like I was supported by everything that was happening there. And everything I did was very successful because it was exactly what I was naturally good at. Right? So everybody Wies, I believe, when you when you take that role, right, because that does need to happen because if you don’t take control, if you are involved, the one saying, actually, I think we should talk about this role, right, and how we can make it the best out for both of us. If you don’t do it, the company,

Nicky Lowe [00:33:09]:

99.9%

Wies Bratby [00:33:10]:

of the time, is gonna go, alright. So we thought about it. This is what we need you to do. Can you do that? Right? And they they go Wies that old school way of, yeah, of sort of art. Do you fit the bill are you good enough for us and for this role that we have decided we need when Usually, and I can say this because I was HR. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:33:33]:

99%

Wies Bratby [00:33:34]:

of the time, they have no idea what they need. They really don’t. People just, you know, they say, okay. We had bulb doing this for old bulb left. We need a new bulb. Right? Let’s be real bulb sucked in many ways. There there was there was, you know, things weren’t perfect in any way, shape, or form. Right? And so what is much more interesting and helpful for both sides is that you do sit down, you kind of take a step back and you go, what do we really need rather than let’s continue things as they were? anyway, as you can tell, I could talk about this for hours. It’s a super I think it’s a super interesting process, right, but most important results are really fabulous.

Nicky Lowe [00:34:10]:

And what I love is that you’ve talked about, actually, the negotiation piece is only about 10% of what you teach, but in the other 90% is about how you get there. And it’s making me think of a client that I’m working with at the moment, a private coaching client, and she works for one of the world’s best known organizations Wies an incredibly senior role. and he’s well paid for it. And but every time her paycheck comes in, every month, she finds it hugely triggering because she doesn’t believe she’s worth it. And there’s that piece that I imagine Wies quite important around this is, you know, getting over scarcity mindset and having the belief and the self esteem that I’m worth it, and I deserve to ask for this. 100%.

Wies Bratby [00:34:50]:

100%. I think it’s I think it’s tricky entering that stage where you feel that you are overpaid because it tends to kick start a process where you feel like you have to hamster will. You have to work so hard to, quote, unquote, you know, yeah, yeah, be be worthy of all that money, which you and I both know is not a very healthy, you know, way of thinking I mean, it’s it doesn’t lead to any great outcomes when you feel like you have to work even harder than you already net really will because of the way that you’re wired as a woman in today’s society. Right? So so, yeah, I would I would suggest I mean, you know all of this, and, and I’m not advising you, but anybody who is hearing this, who can identify with their client, I would say, for the love of all things holy, focus on your mindset. Right? There is nothing you need to improve on. there is not a company in the world that will pay you more than they think that you are worth. I mean,

Nicky Lowe [00:35:53]:

80%

Wies Bratby [00:35:53]:

of the work that I do is is mindset focus. It really is. It’s strategies, thought technique. It’s not skill, right, none of that. It is getting clarity, but mostly. It is, mindset focus, confidence, building work to, really own not just intellectually, no, that you really own all the magic that you’re doing, right, to really see it, to really own it, and to lean into it. right, to get comfortable. I mean, for me, personally, when I joined that company and, after my law firm where you know, I shaped the role. I felt like I was doing my wholebie. Like, I was just having a ton of fun, and I was getting great results. but I was just having so much fun that I sometimes wondered, like, I just doesn’t feel very professional. This doesn’t feel like you know, I, I should get paid. It doesn’t have money for it, right, because I was having so much fun. And it was only when I started really realizing, oh, in this environment and in this role, right, this setup that is just perfect for me Right? It feels easy because it is easy for me because I’m so good at it. Right? Naturally, you don’t have to work Hartford. Whereas, I, you know, in the years before all those years of my law firm, I was constantly focused on how I didn’t live up to, you know, how I wasn’t good enough, right? So really changing my mindset there, made all the difference truly. And and then it was just fun, humor fun.

Nicky Lowe [00:37:26]:

Yeah. And Listeners to my podcast will have heard me talk about I talk about the difference between the magician and the mule mindset. The mule is, you know, I have all the work in, I get paid for every hour that I work. And if I’m not working, I’m not earning, and that magician mindset, when you own your zone of genius and you leverage the hell out of it and you seem to work less or enjoy it more, and it just comes more effortlessly. And I love that you that’s what you teach your clients to do. So I know that you not only help women in the workplace, but also around how this can trans kind of transform our personal lives. Can you kind of share some examples of how negotiation skills has positively impacted your life and perhaps the the clients that you work with?

Wies Bratby [00:38:11]:

Yeah. 100%. I mean, I think sort of as a key piece here, you need to understand, right, that you only have one life. Okay. That sounds really, you know, simp simplistic, but you have one life. Yes. you know, career is part of that, but your home life is as well. And they impact each other tremendously, meaning that if you have a setup at work, that isn’t working for your home life. Well, they’ll notice that, right, back home. You will notice it, obviously. And the same way is things are really tricky at home. That has a spillover effect into your career. So the 2 are completely linked, connected, you know, part of each other. And so, you know, before I talked about the the the misconception that negotiating for your self isn’t important. Well, this is a key piece. Right? the your health will be affected if you don’t negotiate at work and at home for a setup that allows you to do your best work. And so what we’re really talking about is ultimately. Right? We know that from the research, again, worldwide, you know, whether you’re in Sweden or whether you’re in Asia deep down, We see that women do 2 thirds of the house work, right, the kids, the house, etcetera. plus the entire mental workload that they carry, right, that running all the things that need organizing to have a smooth life when guys only do one third. Now that puts massive stress on us, right? It really has significant and and measurable effect on our health. what we know is that working women experience far greater stress levels than guys who work equal hours, and they have higher blood pressure. Now a chromic elevation of blood pressure is a risk factor in heart disease, which is the the number one killer of women. so severe stress contributes to a weakened immune system, aging, depression, arthritis, diabetes, like a whole host of nastiness. Right? And so Getting, again, getting a setup that works for you is just incredibly important for everybody. I think the other piece is, that your career gets impacted if you don’t you know, have a setup at home, right, that works. So you need to have a conversation. If you have a partner, right, you need to have a conversation Wies them about how you are going to divide this workflow, how you are how you have divided the the the the mental workload, right, at home as well. And you need to get, I think, really clear for yourself on how, you know, what you can carry, what is sustainable, what is sustainable with a view to your career path as well, because as you go up in your career, right, there is, you know, there’s bigger responsibilities that is a bigger load to carry, not necessarily more hours. That’s, again, also a common misconception. The more severe I become, the more the harder I have to work. That’s absolutely untrue. talking about misconceptions and debunking them. It’s absolutely untrue. You have more, leeway, so to say, to then, execute on those responsibilities, then if you are lower down in the on the totem pole, but, yeah, can,

Nicky Lowe [00:41:45]:

which also yeah. So powerful means for people to hear. And I wonder if you could give an insight into your stick kind of set up because I know when we spoke originally, I was like, oh, there’s some really good stuff that you’ve negotiated in in your home. because you’re a mom, aren’t you? You’re a working mom?

Wies Bratby [00:42:03]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have 2 daughters. they’re they’re 13 going on 31 and 9, very sweet, super fun age, super hardcore. I yeah. No. I, I have a slightly different setup than most of the people in the sense that, for many years, we both worked which was unsustainable for me, hence, the burnout. Right? That was definitely a part of that. that what caused that. And then we were broad and we called help in, which was, much more normal in Asia and which basically saved my sanity, for, for many years. We’ve since then always had an au pair. so also got a ton of help help in, to manage right, both those, high impact careers, like, like, we were but it it wasn’t ultimately working for us in the sense that Wies just got further and further part, and we we had dates at the airport. I mean, it made no sense. right? Because he would be flying in as I was flying out or the other way around, like, Riddle Crazy, we realized we get the airport. Just to just to point out that. But, yeah, no, we we it it was tricky. And so when we moved back to my native country, right, because my husband’s British, but when we moved back to the Netherlands a couple of years ago, And I actually proposed to him to take the time that, you know, after 20 years of, you know, being, big in finances and operations and, you know, having this really high pressured, role, right, to take a couple months off and to help us settle here. And then from the place of sort of Zinn, right, start looking around for other roles, and to help me in the business as well. And we kinda never stopped doing that. We never quite had a conversation that we were planning to have after those 6 months, right, to see how things would, were happening, I guess, because we were both very happy with it. So we now have a setup whereby I work slightly more than full time. I have to admit and my husband, works within the business, right, and, also takes care of pretty much everything at home. And, that’s a setup that we will have for as long as it works for both of us. Obviously, I’m incredibly, fortunate. I’m incredibly happy with this, setup. I can really, you know, I tell my clients, I am the man in our relationship in that sort of traditional, you know, division of labor. And it’s really freaking good. I’m really telling you. It’s really good. because he takes care of everything. He’s incredible. It’s also it it fits him a little better because he’s, you know, he’s just the way that Bratby works is, a lot more, I would say, aligned with what is important for a family, and sounds really cryptic. What I’m saying is that I have a terrible memory, and so I’ll forget everything, whereas nothing will escape his attention. So so that, that works as well. But, yeah, we have the division whereby he basically takes care of everything at home, and I, work full time morning. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:45:18]:

And I think that really struck me from our original conversation that you’ve kind of switched those gender roles on their head in your in your home. And also the cultural, because you were saying, obviously, your husband being British, there’s that cultural dynamic as well how you’ve navigated that. And what also struck me is that fact that you said, oh my god. How good does it feel to not be carrying all that domestic and mental load? and and getting to see it with that fresh pair of eyes of, oh my god. That is what I’ve been carrying, and that’s what we carry as women. Mhmm. 100%.

Wies Bratby [00:45:53]:

It it really I mean, I’m I’m honestly not saying this to make people feel jealous but I really want people to realize that if they are the one who does everything at home, then they go the short end of the stick. And and really to reassess this, there is a re, you know, this is part of why I believe so many women drop out, of the, you know, they call them broken career rung, right, where they take a step back when the kids arrive and then they, you know, they they start working less and less and often drop out Wies because they expect themselves and the people around them expect the woman right to take care of these things when I really don’t see any reason for why that would happen. I there’s a couple pieces that fit into that. Right? There’s the well, at the start, you know, you’re as a woman, you’re the one who gets pregnant. You’re the one who can breastfeed if that’s something that you’re doing. And so all of those tiny little pieces sort of you know, create this path whereby you’ll be doing most of the work. And it’s a very it has been, at least for me, a very I should say it like a like a very intentional effort to not fall into that trap. So even when I earned less, I continue to work full time because I realized that that is an investment in the rest of my career. even if it didn’t make sense for me to do this, right, that this was what ultimately paid off in terms of, you know, if we’re solely dividing it by who is making more money, then often as a woman, you’ll be the one that, you know, that gives up their job. When there really is no need because you can you can catch up later. And also, how is it, you know, I think the the financial, the the sort of the, the equation that needs to be done is not one who is earning more because I think you’re both, you know, it’s it’s 50% of both of your salary, right, if you were, if you were taking it. So I think, I think the questions we’re asking ourselves are wrong. I have been very intentional and very, yeah, focused on this particular piece. And that’s what’s ended up here, but Yeah. Or that’s how we’ve ended up, like, in the position that we now have. I would like to add, though, for anybody concerned about my husband being, you know, trolling by his horrible Wies. that this is all in the entire sort of start of this conversation is that that we’ve had, right, between us, has been what works for us, both, right, for us as a family, for our kids, but also very much for us as individuals. I didn’t say I want you to stay at home. I said, Hey, you’ve worked your asshole for a very long time. How about would this be interesting to you? Would that, you know, would that fit for you? There’s no, no, you know, no chance in hell that my very, you know, smart and driven and, a stubborn I’ll tell you that, husband would anything that isn’t working for him. Right? I think the only difference in our relationship with what I see many of my friends have, in their relationship Wies that I am very aware as well of what can happen if you don’t, you know, if you don’t put your focus and your intention on this. I think the other piece is that I he comes from, my husband comes from a very traditional British background. Right? mother worked in a little bit in the company of, my my father-in-law, 3 sons, right, all very British. I come from a very different setup whereby for a large part of my life growing up, my father was at home. and so I think had that example of how perfectly fine, you know, that was or in in fact, how great it was. And I I really do believe that my husband’s loving, you know, spending so much time girls really loving being a part of their Wies to a much larger degree than a lot of other people or a lot of other men are. Right? So that that works, that works beautifully.

Nicky Lowe [00:50:11]:

And how powerful it is in terms of the context about what we’re talking about and about knowing getting clarity on what you want and what would work for both of you and feeling empowered to ask for what you need and wants. And the piece that I’m also hearing is when we have that negotiation power to ask to be paid what we’re worth, that puts us in a better position. As you say, it’s not about who earns the most Wies who works the most or not. It shouldn’t be about that, but the mindset that that puts you in in terms of your personal power and not falling into those traditional gender roles. So I can see how you know, how important that really is in this. So we’ve talked about so much goodness here. I’m just wondering if there was just one thing you wanted someone listening to our conversation to take away from it, what would you want that to be?

Wies Bratby [00:51:07]:

Oh, have you gotten an hour? no. I’m kidding. no. Basically, I think I think take responsibility. Right? Take responsibility, for your career. and and and for your life. Right? Don’t wait. I I posted in my group, today, that I think the most powerful lesson, that I’ve had, in my in my life even Wies no one’s coming to save you. Right? You have to no one’s gonna give you permission. No one’s gonna choose you. You have to do all of that yourself. And when you do that, so when you do take responsibility, when you don’t wait for your balls to come to you and say, oh, you deserve more, or you should go for that predict, but instead, right, to really think for yourself. What is it that I want? What is it that would serve me? And then learn the skills to get the other side to buy into that, right, and to work with them to make that work. I think that’s when, your life really, really takes off. but it all starts with you, you taking that responsibility. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:52:18]:

Yeah. And you know, just hearing you say that for some people that might be triggering in that, oh god, it’s all on my shoulders, but actually that puts you in your personal power of Yeah. It’s only me that can do that. So, like, yeah, let’s step up and do it. So I am sure people are gonna wanna find out more about you and your work visa. So where would you point them towards? And I’ll put all these into the show notes.

Wies Bratby [00:52:41]:

Oh, wonderful. I’m I hang out on LinkedIn quite a bit, I rent there a ton. Instagram these days as well. I’m not with cool kids. so women in negotiation, right, Win is my, is my company. So if you, if you typed it in, you’ll find me. My name is very funny. Lisa Bradley, w i e s. and then Bratby is Bratby. and I also have a website, called women innegotiation.org. ORT at the end, where, you know, you can find my blogs. You can find all kinds of things. There’s also, a free training there. seminar that I’ve done where I actually delve into some of the things we’ve been talking about that might be really interesting for people. if they’re looking for support there. I also have a cold cost, as well where I I do some coaching, it’s called winning with the spread fee. So that might be interesting.

Nicky Lowe [00:53:38]:

Fantastic. And I’ll also put a link to your TEDx talk as well. So those will all be in the show notes and people can find them at wisdomforworkingmums.co.ukforward/one 19 because this is episode 119. So you’ll find all the links there if you need them. So, Reese, thank you. It’s been an absolute pleasure. I always love speaking to you, so thanks coming on and sharing your story and your work with us.

Wies Bratby [00:54:03]:

Oh, you’re very welcome. Thank you for having me. It’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you Wies you, loved your, your shares as well. So thank you very much for having me.

Nicky Lowe [00:54:17]:

It’s a pleasure. If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Wisdom for Working Moms, please share it on social media and with your friends and family. I’d love to connect with you too. So if you head over to Wies for working mums.co.uk, you find a link on how to do this. And if you love the show and really want to support it, please go to iTunes, write a review, and subscribe. be helping another working man find this resource too. Thanks so much for listening.