Nicky Lowe [00:00:46]:
One of the things I value most in life is staying curious. I know that none of us have lived every experience. I believe that when we stay open-minded and willing to learn from people whose journeys are different from us, we become better leaders, better colleagues, better friends, and ultimately better human beings. And today’s conversation is one of those opportunities for learning. And I’ll be honest, I don’t have any personal direct experience of surrogacy, but as I’ve learned more about the realities of modern family building, I’ve become increasingly aware of how little many of us understand about the journey that intended parents, surrogates, and their families navigate. And that’s important because whether we’re aware of it or not, these journeys are happening all around us. They involve our colleagues, our team members, our friends, our family members, and the people we lead. And my guest today is Michael Johnson Ellis, co-CEO and co-founder of My Surrogacy Journey and Two Dads UK.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:50]:
Alongside his husband Wes, Michael has built his family through both UK and international surrogacy and is the proud father of 3 children. What began as their own path to parenthood has grown into a mission to make surrogacy safer, more ethical, and better understood. Through their work, they’re helping families around the world navigate surrogacy while also campaigning for improvements in healthcare legislation and workplace support. And in this conversation, we explore some of the biggest misconceptions about surrogacy, what ethical and relationship-led surrogacy looks like in practice, and the often unseen emotional realities of family building, and really importantly, what organisations, managers, and colleagues can do to better support families created through surrogacy. My hope is that this conversation does what the best conversations do: it expands our understanding, it challenges our assumptions, and helps show up with a little more empathy and awareness for the people around us. I just loved talking to Michael. He’s honest, vulnerable, shares about his own journey and just his spirit and passion to make sure that he can turn his own pain into purpose in changing people’s experience for the better. I just love speaking to him, and I hope you enjoy listening.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:16]:
So welcome, Michael. Thank you for joining me on the podcast.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:03:19]:
You’re very welcome. Nice to be here. Thank you.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:22]:
So we got introduced through a mutual friend of ours, and I’ve been following your work for a while, and probably from a personal interest more than a kind of professional, but because we’ve got this connection. But what I’m— one of the things that I realized is I don’t know a lot in this space, and I’ve got my own unconscious bias, I’ve got my own knowledge gaps. So I cannot wait to dive into this because I am somebody that is a lifelong learner. And I think this will be useful for becoming a better leader, a better parent, and a kind of better human. So I can’t wait to dive into this conversation.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:03:58]:
Me too, me too. And thank you. I think, you know, I work in a very secretive topic, a topic that, that divides opinions, a topic that for some people is taboo. But one of my passions, by not only being a parent through surrogacy and egg donation, but the work that I now do and have committed myself to be doing to build families safer, to do all of the work that me and my husband and our amazing team do to not only educate people about surrogacy and egg donation, but also advise people what it isn’t rather than what it is. And that’s, that’s often some of the misconceptions that we get, and especially when that crosses into the workplace.

Nicky Lowe [00:04:45]:
Brilliant. I can’t wait to dive into this. I think one of the things that would be really useful right at the beginning is to actually define what do we mean by surrogacy, because again, when I was kind of researching for this, I was like, I think I know what it means, but it would be really useful to get your definition as somebody who’s an expert in this area.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:05:02]:
So surrogacy is when a woman or a person carries another pregnancy for another individual or couple. These people that are becoming intended parents or parents already, they’ve already got a child, have usually been through infertility, a diagnosis which has left them infertile. They could have a condition called MRKH where they’re born without a uterus. They could have had cancer and chemotherapy has either had their uterus removed or has destroyed any egg reserve that they had and can’t carry. Or they could be from the LGBTQ+ community, so they could be a same-sex male couple or a single man, uh, or, or a single gay man, or, um, potentially, um, a trans person or trans couple. There are 2 types of surrogacy that, that are common in the UK. Surrogacy is perfectly legal in the UK. Firstly, what, what is illegal in the UK is commercial surrogacy, so no one can profit from surrogacy under the Surrogacy Arrangements Act of 1985.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:06:07]:
So Surrogacy in the UK is altruistic, which means surrogates are paid reasonable expenses to carry a pregnancy, and surrogacy organizations have to operate legally as a nonprofit in the UK. 2 types of surrogacy, as I mentioned. You’ve got traditional surrogacy, which is something that we don’t really recommend that much, but it’s still very, very popular. That is when the surrogate has a genetic link to the child she’s carrying, so will use her own eggs in that fertilization process. either through IVF or through home insemination. And then you’ve got gestational surrogacy, and that’s when the surrogate is the host of the pregnancy and the genetic material, egg, sperm, embryos, are transferred into the uterus of the surrogate, and there is no genetic link to that child. She’s carrying that child hopefully to term. So that’s surrogacy.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:07:05]:
They’re the kind of the 2 types. The more common is gestational surrogacy because a lot of people want the, the gap between genetic link and not genetic link to the surrogate. Um, but it’s a personal choice, uh, and, uh, you know, both are great ways for people to build or complete their family.

Nicky Lowe [00:07:26]:
I’ve learned so much already, so thank you for that. I would love to hear actually your journey into this, like what got you into the surrogacy world and what your experience has been.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:07:37]:
So, I’m a gay dad through surrogacy and egg donation. I met my husband in 2012. It was around about kind of this time. I was newly single. I’d been single for about 6 months, and I decided to head to Birmingham Pride with all my mates and just think, do you know what, I’m gonna kiss lots of boys, and I’m just gonna have so much fun, because I needed to let what hair I had down. And Within minutes of arriving on Hurst Street, the first person that I bumped into was Wes, who’s my husband. We kind of got separated in that, in that moment, and I never got a chance to get his number. But at the end of the event, as I was leaving Pride, I was pushing the turnstile, he was pushing the other way, and it was— I didn’t know it was him.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:08:27]:
So we kind of got reunited again, and we haven’t been apart since, really. We got engaged after 5 months, and we got married 2 years later. And then very early in our relationship, My husband has now a 21-year-old from a previous heterosexual marriage. My ex never wanted children. And that was kind of the reason why we split eventually, because I always knew I wanted to be a parent and he never, never did. And I couldn’t not go through life and not experience parenthood. So when I met Wes, I remember crazily one of the first things I asked him was, do you want children? Because I need to know. I think you’re really cool.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:09:07]:
You’re really hot. But I really want children, and I don’t really want to be wasting another 7 years of my life and not moving anywhere. And he was like, I’ve not really thought about it, but yeah, I’m open to it. So as our relationship went through, you know, we were quite adamant in the beginning that adoption wasn’t for us. And I think that’s okay to say because there’s this perception on either the infertile or the LGBTQ+ community that it’s our job to adopt all of these children in care, sadly. And, you know, I get that a lot. Well, why didn’t you just adopt? But there is no just adopt, you know, adoption is hard, it’s invasive, and it’s just not for everybody. And surrogacy for me, at the time, I was more focused wrongly on having a genetic link to a child and seeing what a mini-me would be like.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:10:05]:
And, you know, all of that. And I came full circle through my journey and my husband’s journey to realize that the genetic link is less important. I wanted to be a parent. So we started looking at surrogacy. We looked at surrogacy from all around the world, but we discovered that you have to be really careful. There are many destinations that are vile and exploitative and exploit women and children. But there are destinations that are incredibly consented, that, you know, empower women. They make this choice.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:10:42]:
It’s their body, their choice. But again, you have to go into this with your eyes wide open. So we spent 2 years researching, traveling, and looking at destinations, but we came back to the UK. And the UK has around 400 children a year being born through surrogacy, and that number has been steadily growing since the data began. And we thought, right, where do we begin? How do we find a surrogate? How do we create embryos? whose sperm is going to get used, how many children would we like, all of these questions. And we, we reached out to a couple of the agencies that are on the government website, on the gov.uk website, but they weren’t accepting new intended parents because they didn’t have enough surrogates. So we were like, oh, okay, so we can do what’s called an independent journey, and that basically means no support. So it’s the Wild West.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:11:39]:
A lot of the advice is on Facebook or Reddit groups, which can be toxic and unsafe. But we didn’t know what we didn’t know, so we dived into it. And that’s where our research began. We was picking up advice, we ended up finding a clinic in Manchester. We, at the time, wrote a profile about ourselves that Caroline, our first surrogate, read. And Yeah, that’s when the fun began and we created embryos with my sperm initially and had an egg donor from a clinic in Manchester and we started creating what are now our 3 children. So Tallulah is 9, Duke is almost 7, and Ottavio or Otto, he is 9 months old.

Nicky Lowe [00:12:33]:
I love hearing that journey from like the moment of pride all the way through. You’re a great storyteller, Michael. I love it. Um, and tell me what that experience was like. So you met Caroline, and it sounds like you had to go on such a journey to discover the information. And I’m sure there’s loads that you’ve learned about what to do and what not to do. What then inspired you to then this to become actually an area where you are such an advocate and do so much championing about?

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:13:06]:
Well, it was really clear that there wasn’t an organization that existed that came from the viewpoint, firstly, from balance, because the organizations were either very weighted towards the surrogate, and that made intended parents feel on edge, or like there was an imbalance of power, or they were, you know, uber corporate and focused on really heavily on the legals, because one was— one company was set up by surrogates, one was set up by lawyers. And we discovered on our journey creating embryos, having conversations with our family, potentially then talking to our employers or line managers, that none of the organizations had all of that baked into their support. So emotional support was, was huge for us. You know, we, we had to navigate this very complex pathway on our own, but there wasn’t an organization that understood, firstly, a journey for gay men. And then when you are a same-sex male couple and you’re creating embryos, initially there’s always going to be someone in that relationship that has something called genetic loss. And that obviously is when you’re not genetically linked to your child. But that can manifest itself in trauma, in postnatal depression, in resentments, because, you know, but no one talks about it. And no one had ever realized it was that much of a thing because all of the other organizations really focused on more of the surrogate element.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:14:45]:
So we definitely experienced lots of bumps in the road. And We decided firstly to launch Two Dads UK. And that was launched just after Tallulah was born. Because we had a really hard experience. We were really safe when we were with the fertility clinic. They got us, they understood us. There was no, you know, sniggers, microaggressions, everything was beautiful. But the moment we were discharged into the NHS, it was wild.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:15:16]:
And I remember walking into for our 12-week scan when we were really excited to see our baby for the first time. And, you know, we walked into a maternity services area and, you know, people were laughing. We went to the desk and, you know, the faces of the staff was odd. And then when Caroline went to be scanned, they called her husband’s name who was with her. And they they said, oh, only the real dad is allowed to come in here. And again, it was just the start of these words that would, throughout my journey as a parent, still happen today, you know, almost 10 years on. So we wanted to do something about that. And the first thing that we did was work with the Department of Health and Social Care and NHS England and challenge first this NHS Trust, not with a view for compensation, but with a view to write an inclusive policy to train every nurse and midwife in the country and work with the Royal College of Midwives to roll out healthcare guidance to how to respectfully treat surrogates and parents that were going through surrogacy, because you were excluded.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:16:30]:
We were told that we couldn’t see our baby being born. We were told that when our baby was born, it would have to be handed to us in a car park off-site because they didn’t want to be arrested for human trafficking. So this was all told to us at our 12-week scan. And we were like, this is wild. Like, I wasn’t expecting this. I thought they were gonna be all celebratory and like, oh, this is so exciting, but they weren’t. So we instructed a legal team and we were successful. And that policy then rolled out to every single NHS trust in England and Wales.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:17:07]:
And you know, we, Two Dads UK, then became an activist and someone who would lobby for change and for a law reform to modernize the surrogacy laws in the UK and, and to speak up for, for not only intended parents but for surrogates too that were in a vulnerable healthcare setting but were told that you’re the legal mother because they are in the UK when they give birth and intended parents were were really cast aside. And when they’re already feeling anxious, especially if it’s a heterosexual couple that have been through loss already, to be told that you can’t see your baby being born is terrifying. And we did see our baby being born. We were both allowed in theatre, and we changed policy legislation to allow every parent to see their baby being born because there is not another example when parents are excluded to see their baby be born unless it’s an emergency situation. But providing the surrogate consents, we wanted this to be a beautiful experience for everyone. And that’s— they were some of the challenges that we had, and there’s been more, but that was the start and that was the catalyst for us for launching Two Dads UK and then launching My Surrogacy Journey, which has gone on to be a bit of a beast in itself, really.

Nicky Lowe [00:18:27]:
Michael, I’m sat here holding tears back. One, um, I’m just sorry you had that experience because I could just see in your face of like the anticipation of this joy of the 12-week scan, which I’m sure any parent can relate to. You go in with this anticipation and to have that stolen from you in such a cruel way, like, I, like, I could feel, I could feel it for you.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:18:49]:
Yeah, yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:18:49]:
But just, and I can see why Jocelyn loves you so much, you know. You’ve got heart and you’ve got spirit. Like, you’ve taken your pain and you’ve gone, that’s not happening to anybody else.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:19:00]:
And 100%, you know, because there are some people that won’t speak up. There are, there are others that, you know, my husband’s from Hull, I’m from Wolverhampton. We’re both from the most beautiful ends of the country, and we’ve come together and we’re a force that doesn’t accept no. And because there are people that do just put up. And there are people that forsake this milestone. I remember all 3 of my children. I remember the moment my eyes clapped eyes on their eyes. And I get goose pimples saying it because it’s one of those moments that hopefully you see as a parent, but you cherish that.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:19:40]:
Those are the images that you will get back again when you’re taking that last breath because they are precious. And for someone take that away from you is, is discriminatory and unfair, and I don’t stand for that.

Nicky Lowe [00:19:54]:
And you also have mentioned to me about your experience in the workplace as well, so it wasn’t just in the healthcare system. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that?

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:20:03]:
Yeah, so again, you know, what you’ll discover with, with me and with surrogacy is the law is, is out of date, and we know that. We’ve been campaigning for a reform, you know, for, oh my gosh, over 12 years now. The Law Commission were instructed, and they distributed the final bill that was delivered to the previous government in November— sorry, March 2023. Nothing’s happened with that, sadly. Far more important things for government to be doing, apparently. But whilst they’re not modernising the law, and the Law Commission’s recommendations were great, they were adding more compliance checks, they were protecting more vulnerable people and women and children, but for whatever reason, it’s not been moved forward. So in all of that, employment law obviously is impacted, and it’s impacted because there is no employment law that necessarily talks about surrogacy. When you’re having a child through surrogacy, when you’re having a child through surrogacy, the mechanism you use in the workplace is adoption leave.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:21:11]:
And that’s okay. You know, that’s nothing against adoption, but you’re immediately not validated. You’re immediately not seen. Your route to parenthood is not as good as. And quite often when you do surrogacy, there is no pregnant person to go into the workplace and go, my, my MatB1 form, please, and immediately the questions begin. Now, at the time, I was— we then lived in Birmingham. I worked in London. So, I commuted every single day.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:21:48]:
I had quite a senior board-level role in the city. I worked in a toxic male environment. And I only know that— I didn’t know that phrase 10 years ago. But I certainly see it now. And I also wasn’t out in the workplace because it wasn’t physically or psychologically safe for me to do that.

Nicky Lowe [00:22:10]:
So when you say out, you weren’t openly gay?

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:22:13]:
No, not at work. Um, and, and I was also very good at my job and I got all the best clients. I, you know, but I— but if I was out, that would be very different. So I remember Going into the office and needing to speak to HR and my manager, who was incredibly senior. And I remember speaking to him, and his first look was disappointment, not congratulations. And I was a bit taken aback because I thought he would be really excited. And he was like, why the fuck have you just done that? And I’m like, oh, I thought this was— He was the only person who knew that I was gay. And he was like, you, my man, these are his words, you, my man, have just committed career suicide.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:23:10]:
And I was like, shit, shit. And all I could think of is I need to call Wes, I need to call Wes. And he was like, gays don’t have kids. And I was like, this one does. And yes, we do. But I’m telling you that we’re having a baby and I would like some leave. Because my husband worked in major events, he had to travel a lot. Plus, I wanted to be there for our baby.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:23:39]:
And he dismissed me from the office. And I went sat back at my desk and I could feel myself like sweating and panicking and And I thought, you know what, I’m going to speak to HR. That’s what they’re there for. It’s a safe space. And I spoke to her and she laughed and she was like, surrogacy? Buying babies? And I went, yeah, that’s not what surrogacy is. She was like, it is. And I was like, no, no, no, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not. But we’ll come— we’ll circle back to that later.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:24:14]:
Can we talk about the what does my leave look like? She’s like, well, you don’t get leave, you’re not pregnant. And I was like, oh no, but I think you’ll find I do. Because I’d spoken to ACAS, I’d done some research. And I was like, oh, I do, I qualify for adoption leave. And this would be the mechanism. Can I look at the maternity and adoption policy? And they were like, well, they’re only for women. And I was like, okay, can I have a look at what our policy might look like? And they’re like, I need to speak to management. And then I was dismissed again, and no one spoke to me for the rest of that day.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:24:48]:
And then by 3 PM of that day, everyone knew I was gay. And that was a moment where I just thought, wow, now I know what women have been going through in the workplace forever. That judgment of you’re not going to do your job well enough when you come back? Are you going to come back? You’re a drain on resources. Oh my God, why have you gone and got yourself pregnant? You know, I, for the first time, you know, I could understand, and women go through much worse, but I could understand that nervousness of why women are fearful in that workplace to tell their employer that they’re pregnant, because I experienced what discrimination felt like. We didn’t have a policy, and I had to lie to have appointments to go and see scans. I took unauthorized leave, I booked leave, or I rang in sick, and it was just a really stressful situation. And as well, when you’re having a child through surrogacy or IVF, you often get calls from the clinic in the early fertilization stage, and you have to take those calls at work. So I had to take terrifying calls about fertilization.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:26:05]:
Has the embryo got to day 1, day 3, day 5? Is it viable to transfer? And all the time I then had to go back to my desk and everything was normal. And again, there was no support for any of that. There was no— not once did anyone sit down and say, like you did, explain it to me, let me learn. It was very much their opinions of how I was building a family was wrong, and they just didn’t want Oh, again, I’m heartbroken for you.

Nicky Lowe [00:26:33]:
And it’s interesting because you said women have it far worse, and I sat here going, I don’t know, like, we can’t compare people’s situations. But I’ve, I felt that there, there’s so many levels to that experience for you as kind of being a man, being a gay man, having your roots parenthood. Like, there were so many levels to that. And yes, there are challenges absolutely for women. That’s why I do what I do. But I don’t think it diminishes what you went through, like, in comparison. That’s— that is huge.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:27:05]:
I appreciate that. Um, and I think as well, I, you know, I was also a man wanting to be a primary caregiver. Um, and one of the other things that was said to me in a follow-up meeting, and they were like, why do men want to be at home with children? That’s not our job. And I’m like, well, I don’t have a choice. And I actually think it is our job for men to step up. And I’m really looking forward to having 6 months off with, with my new child. And then HR went, 6 months? And I was like, well, I can take unpaid leave. And they went, you can? And it was like, that was a threat then.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:27:44]:
And I didn’t, I was back to work 6 weeks and 4 days later. My daughter had to go to my mom for 6 weeks and then in full-time nursery. So I missed so much fun stuff. But then, you know, 6 months later, I resigned and started doing more work in a space that I’m more passionate about, working with businesses to modernize policy, to make sure surrogacy is mentioned in policies, to make sure that language is gender neutral, that not every person gives birth is a mother, and not to erase women from policies, but just to validate all routes to parenthood. That’s all. You know, whether that’s IVF in the workplace, whether that’s, you know, your colleague who’s going through a round of egg collection that’s having to do her injections in the toilet and hide her medication in a lunchbox at the back of the fridge because there’s no place for it to be stored. You know, I want to speak out and reach out to those type of people so employers can build policies where people like me don’t have to hide our family and where our families are seen and heard in the workplace.

Nicky Lowe [00:28:55]:
Talk about turning your pain into a purpose. I mean, wow.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:28:59]:
Yeah, it’s— but I think, do you know what? I’m glad we’ve done it because, you know, we support, you know, close to 800 people a year going through these journeys now. And we’ve grown. Now, my surrogacy journey is now, I think we’re now the second largest surrogacy agency in the world. And we’re a team of 95 people. We do phenomenal work. Our team are outstanding, and a huge shout out to Jocelyn. But we have all had trauma, right? That’s one of the common themes throughout all of our people. And all of our people have turned that trauma into And we have such a passionate team with lived experience, whether it’s a cancer survivor, someone who’s had surrogacy, someone who’s infertile, other gay parents, people that have experienced other type of life trauma that want to use that experience to grow.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:29:56]:
You know, I think it’s— I could have done one of two things. I could have just sat there and just let more and more people have an awful experience, or I could do something that eventually my kids will learn about and be really proud.

Nicky Lowe [00:30:09]:
Absolutely. So I’d love to get down into some of the practicalities now, because I think your story is so incredibly powerful. And it’s made me go, right, what else can we be doing in terms of communicating so that people don’t make those often unintended— I mean, some of the stuff that you experienced was, was far from unintentional. But say you’ve got somebody, a colleague in the workplace that discloses that actually, yeah, this is going to be my route to parenthood. What advice could you give me and anybody listening about the dos, the don’ts, what’s helpful, what’s to be avoided?

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:30:52]:
The first piece of advice that I would say is I would react in a way that goes, wow, congratulations, tell me more, because the chance that they will know anything about surrogacy is minute, right? Or they may have other views on it. So be educated, right? People like me, people going through surrogacy, we don’t just wake up and want to do it. There’s— if you’re infertile, you’ve probably been on a 15, 20-year journey of loss where you’ve miscarried at work, where an embryo transfer hasn’t worked again for the 10th time. You’ve spent— close to £60,000, £70,000 worth of unsuccessful fertility treatment. You’re exhausted. The last thing you want is not to be seen. So ask them to tell me more, if they want to, obviously. But my first thing would be, wow, that sounds really fascinating.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:31:51]:
Let me learn. Tell me, what’s the process? If you have an employee resource group that’s either an LGBTQ group Or most are now developing fertility in the workplace groups, direct the person to either or. But sit down and understand how this journey has come about if that person wants to talk. Quite often people like me, we do want to educate, we do want to share our story, because we know the impact of sharing it is going to probably pop an extra few words into an employee handbook or policy. And that’s what we want, you know, we want surrogacy. We’re not asking everyone to come on board with the idea of it because people have their own opinions on it. And that’s fine. But understand that it’s a route to parenthood.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:32:43]:
And modern families are created so differently to what they were 30 years ago. You know, the fact that in every classroom now in the UK, there is one child born through IVF now. You know, there are— it’s more and more popular, more and more common. Fertility rates are on the decrease, surrogacy is increasing. It’s not going to be the taboo that it once was. So sit with that person, understand their journey, get them to share with them what that next milestone looks like, understand what support they might need in the workplace, talk about Talk about leave, talk about policy. You may not have a fertility policy, not many people do, but more and more are developing them. But understand what does the next part of the pregnancy look like, because you also need to keep that person safe because they may not be out in the workplace like me, or they may not have shared they’ve been going through IVF.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:33:44]:
So what does that comms piece look like? They might not want to be— one common thing that really impacts the infertility heterosexual community is when there’s a whip round for a baby shower. If HR have an advance notice or a line manager has an advance notice, because they’re incredibly triggering for these types of women or people, and your manager can work really closely with you to protect you from that, because 9 times out of 10, that person doesn’t really want to be around when there’s a collection for a— they’ll be really pleased for that person, but they’d rather not see it. So it’s about understanding what that journey to get there was like. And then if they can build a policy together, look at wording, make sure surrogacy is signposted, look at the resources, understand what leads leave looks like, and if you can influence new policy. And really, for me, I wanted my leave to be surrogacy leave. I didn’t always want it called adoption leave because then I had to answer loads of questions. And whilst they didn’t do that for me, I’ve been able to do that for other organisations that have then included a paragraph on surrogacy in the policy, just so people know that that’s valid and that is a, a great route to parenthood.

Nicky Lowe [00:35:14]:
Brilliant, and you’ve covered so much there. And I’m wondering, what are some of the intricacies that would be useful to understand? So you’ve already said about actually there might be more need to take telephone calls during work with updates. So whereas I imagine if your, if your route to parenthood was more the traditional You know, the woman goes off to the hospital to have the scans, therefore you’re not in the workplace, you’ve already got leave. What might be some of those pieces that would be useful, particularly for a line manager, to understand so they can just have more compassion for this?

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:35:53]:
Yeah, it’s really tricky because, depending on the line manager, and this is, this is the roulette of HR, sadly. I, you know, I think let’s create this great fact sheet, some tips and hints for line managers. I think that would be great. But the things that stand out for me is when you are having a child through surrogacy, you know, you, you, you have a, a huge journey before you’re even pregnant, and that’s IVF. So whether you’re straight or gay, you will have to be going for numerous numerous appointments. If you’re using your own eggs, you will have to go for numerous blood tests, egg collection, scanning every day prior to egg collection, then have an anesthetic, go under, have theater, egg retrieval. Most women go back to work because their employers don’t know, right? And most women do that. They put an appointment in their diary because they’re too scared to tell their bosses because people like us that go through surrogacy, Most people are nervous to tell their manager they’re pregnant in fear of losing that promotion or how they will be viewed.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:37:04]:
We have to put our cards on the table maybe a year in advance of that because we need appointments to have semen analysis, maybe some more blood tests, maybe a round of egg collection, maybe another round of egg collection if the first one wasn’t successful. Then there’s an embryo transfer. And I wanted to be at the embryo transfer with my husband. We wanted to be there at technically conception and be there for that moment. And then when you’re having a child through surrogacy, you’re scanned 4 times before you’re 12 weeks. And then you’re scanned then at 12 weeks, 20 weeks, and then that’s it really. So all of those appointments either have to be authorized or not, your annual leave or not. So I think these were These are things to consider.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:37:52]:
So, the sooner anyone can speak to their line manager, if they’re comfortable, then brilliant. The things that the line manager needs to look for is that, come at this with completely open eyes. This is not a traditional nuclear family being created. This is complex. This has a lot of moving pieces and multiple people to schedule. And just like a regular pregnancy, where there is a pregnant person at work, We still want to be at all of those scans. We still want to be supporting our surrogate, and our employers need to get on board with that. You know, surrogacy and IVF is not a choice.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:38:30]:
It is not a lifestyle choice. This has been born through either infertility or other routes, and people just need to understand how people get to the point of which they are when surrogacy is right for them, because there’s probably a ton of trauma that they’re not even aware of that was going on in that workplace under their nose that they weren’t supporting.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:52]:
Brilliant. And like, the 2 words that come out from everything you’ve said are like compassionate curiosity. Like, stay compassionately open-minded and curious to understand whatever’s appropriate that somebody wants to share, but knowing that it isn’t— you cannot approach this from how you may have treated somebody through the more traditional routes to parenthood. And I know that you very kindly—

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:39:16]:
Thank you.

Nicky Lowe [00:39:17]:
You very kindly offered to do this fact sheet, and that is amazing. So we will be putting all of that information into the show notes. But before we go, I know that you, you’ve got a lot of hopes for the future of surrogacy. So can you tell me a bit about what your hopes are in terms of where you’re, you’re trying to advocate and So thank you.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:39:39]:
So we are continuing to push really hard within Parliament to encourage government to address and relook at the Law Commission’s proposal. There’s been a lot of noise on social media recently, some great influencers that have republished a petition which got over 100,000 signatures in Parliament about surrogacy. So that is being debated in Parliament now. That will hopefully put the topic back on the radar. Law reform is really important and is that first step to— I’m not even going to say normalize surrogacy because for some people it will never be their normal, but we want to usualize this as a topic, as a way to build families. Surrogacy in the UK is done with kindness, with consent, and with trust and with friendship. So law reform for me in the next 3 years, I hope, is something that we see. I also have the privilege of working internationally in the international space.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:40:40]:
We are campaigning for safer surrogacy and regulated surrogacy worldwide. We’re working in the US and in Mexico to encourage the Senate and the Supreme Court to to include and to enforce regulation of surrogacy in those jurisdictions as well, so that no woman or child is exploited through that process. Finally, I want access to fertility treatment to be equal. At the moment, gay men and men and trans people are the only community that do not have access to any funded NHS cycle cycles or treatment to create embryos. Same-sex female couples do, heterosexual couples and single people do, but gay men are excluded because, um, again, assumed that was a community that would never want children. We are running a huge campaign with a number of organizations that’s a fertility equality campaign. We’ve spoken in Parliament many, many times. We’re continuing to push this with MPs.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:41:44]:
Sadly, we’re seeing more ICBs in the NHS reduce treatment cycles, you know, to one cycle down from 4, or not offer to anyone at all, which is just, you know, infertility is a disease recognized by the World Health Organization, yet it doesn’t have the same gravitas when it comes to accessing healthcare. So I hope that in my lifetime, fertility access on the NHS is completely equal and everyone gets access to build a family. um, if they’ve been impacted by infertility or they don’t have a uterus.

Nicky Lowe [00:42:25]:
Wow. I, yeah, I didn’t realize your work was so significant and at the levels you were doing it. So thank you for sharing that. I know that people are going to want to find out about more about you, your work, and kind of the areas that you’re making a difference. So could you share where people can find you?

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:42:43]:
I would love to. Um, so you can find my family Instagram page, which has a lot of work about what we do as a family and, and how we utilize what we do and how we educate other families. That’s twodads.uk on Instagram. And if you want to find more information about Two Dads or My Surrogacy Journey, it’s twodadsuk.com or mysurrogacyjourney.com. Check us out there.

Nicky Lowe [00:43:10]:
Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your story, your insights, And your expertise. I really appreciate it.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:43:17]:
You’re welcome. Thank you very much, Nicky. All the best.

Nicky Lowe [00:43:22]:
If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Wisdom for Working Mums, please share it on social media and with your friends and family. I’d love to connect with you too, so if you head over to wisdomforworkingmums.co.uk, you’ll find a link on how to do this. And if you love the show and really want to support it, please Please go to iTunes, write a review, and subscribe. You’ll be helping another working mum find this resource too. Thanks so much for listening.

Michael Johnson Ellis [00:43:52]:
Thank you.