Nicky Lowe [00:00:07]:

Hi. I’m Nikki Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom For Working Mums podcast show where I share insights and interviews that support women to combine their family, work, and life in a more successful and sustainable way. Does public speaking leave you hot under the collar with sweaty palms? You’re not alone if it does. In a survey on social anxiety, people placed death 3rd on their list of their biggest fears. The 2 top responses were walking into a room full of strangers and speaking in public. So whether you’re a seasoned pro or just starting out, the fear of public speaking is something that can affect us all. But fear not because I have a brilliant guest with us today who is here to share her wisdom and expertise on this very subject. My guest is Susie Lavington, who has made her mark as a sought after public speaking coach.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:07]:

With a background in corporate leadership and a passion for empowering individuals to find their voice, Susie has helped countless professionals overcome their fear of speaking in public and stepped confidently onto any stage. Public speaking is a powerful skill we need to learn, especially as women. And why? First off, when we can speak confidently in public, we’re making sure our voices are heard and counted. It’s about equal representation in workplaces and beyond. It helps us climb the career ladder and helps us land leadership roles. But it’s not just about careers. Confident public speaking also lets us champion causes close to our hearts. It’s a way to influence change and inspire action.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:52]:

Networking, yep. It’s a biggie too. Speaking engagement offer opportunities to connect with movers and shakers, which can open doors for new opportunities. And on a personal level, it’s a boost of self esteem. It’s about being able to express ourselves, our ideas, and our experiences with confidence, and it can be a game changer when it comes to breaking stereotypes and pushing against gender bias. Plus, it’s inspiring. I don’t know about you, but when I see other women speak up and speak out, they become powerful role models, motivating me to wanna do the same. So in a nutshell, confident public speaking empowers us as women on multiple fronts, professionally, personally, and in society.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:37]:

And it’s not just about talking. It’s about making a difference and shaping our world. And in this episode, Susie will be sharing her invaluable insights, tips, and techniques to boost your confidence and enhance your public speaking skills, whether you’re looking to ace that next presentation at work, nail a job interview, or simply to feel more confident when speaking up in meetings. Susie’s expertise is here to guide us. So grab your notepad, get ready to take some notes and prepare to be inspired as we delve into the world of public speaking and confidence with the wonderful Susie Lavington. So welcome, Susie. I’m really excited to have you here to talk about this topic today because I think it’s a topic that so many women and people struggle with in general, And your insights and expertise are going to be phenomenal. So welcome.

Suzie Lavington [00:03:28]:

Oh, Nicholas, thank you. Absolutely made out to be here.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:33]:

So for those that don’t yet know about you and and the work that you do, could you give us an insight into who you are and kind of the journey that you’ve taken to do the work that you now do?

Suzie Lavington [00:03:44]:

Yes. Yes. So I am a, a mum, first off. 2 marvellous, rambunctious, all consuming girls. So I’ve got Emily, who’s 7, and Remi, who’s 3. I am the wife of probably the most patient man on the planet. But in terms of career, so I started my career in film production. So always, always wanted to be an actor from, you know, year dot.

Suzie Lavington [00:04:12]:

But I was too scared to go to drama school. So I was surrounded by lots of friends who were really, in my opinion, really, really good actors. And they were out there trying to make it and no one was. So I was just too scared to go to drama school, and and went into the industry, but but started off in production as a runner Because I thought, well, if I was just in that industry, then that would be good enough. And what happened really was that I I started out looking after actors. So sort of some big actors, but also, you know, groups of not so big actors. And what I would do is run them through hair and makeup, and then get them on set, and then sit and watch them do what I wanted to do. So instead of being kind of, you know, there or thereabouts, it was actually quite torturous.

Suzie Lavington [00:05:00]:

So I eventually went to drama school, and and just made an almost living in theater for a good kind of 10 years. But it was I really struggled with nerves, actually, all the way through my career. And I can say that I probably had a bit of a turning point when I was about 25. So I landed a massive opportunity. And my nerves promptly kissed that opportunity goodbye. So I I bombed, I crashed and burned in an audition for the Royal Shakespeare Company. So I jumped through lots of hoops to get that final audition. And on the day, it was kind of split into 2.

Suzie Lavington [00:05:42]:

So as an actor, a lot of people find it really hard to get their head around, if you struggle with nerves, why on earth would you go into acting? I think it’s actually quite, it’s a lot more common among performers than people realize. Yeah, I was I think I was so I was so uncomfortable in my own skin that the best relief out of that was to jump into someone else’s.

Nicky Lowe [00:06:04]:

You hear that so often. That’s kind of so common amongst actors. I remember watching a program. I can’t remember what it was called, but a famous director used to interview actors. Oh, I can’t remember. It was a TV program. And yeah, how common an experience people would say that. So it’s interesting.

Suzie Lavington [00:06:26]:

Yeah, so common. And that’s the thing. It’s that stability of having someone else’s words and a character to hide behind. But then if you would take the script away, then that’s when I would fall to pieces, right? So, any improvisation I had to do, I just would fall apart. So, in that particular audition, we I think we were given a script for a couple of days, and we had lots of time to prep, which I love. I’m a real prepper. But then in the afternoon, we have a little surprise. We were introduced to a rhetoric champion.

Suzie Lavington [00:06:54]:

And this guy gave us just a current affairs topic each to stand up and just talk about. And honestly, when it came to my turn, I cannot tell you what I said. It definitely wasn’t English. Whatever came out of my mouth was not English. And I could just see at that moment that the lights behind the eyes of all that entire panel, it was a big panel at the Royal Shakespeare Company, their lights just just turned out behind their eyes as they realized that, actually, I probably wasn’t as good as they thought I was from the morning. So that was it. Right? That was my telling point. I think I made a promise to myself there and then that I was going to get a hold of this debilitating fear that kept knocking me sideways.

Suzie Lavington [00:07:38]:

Oh, my god. How do

Nicky Lowe [00:07:39]:

you feel that you did that? Because I can feel my I’m holding my breath as you’re telling that story because I could just feel I could imagine myself in that situation and how totally painful that must have been in that moment.

Suzie Lavington [00:07:51]:

Well, it stayed with me. It’s one of those things, and we all have them. Right? We have them. Often it starts at school, you know, when you stand up and you read out loud in class and you stumble and you realise that other people have thoughts and opinions about you and suddenly everyone’s thoughts and opinions become everything. So it was exactly that. It became a core memory that I have never been able to forget. Never. So I can’t just to sort of wrap that up really, but that was that was a turning point.

Suzie Lavington [00:08:17]:

I went on a real kind of quest, just to try and avoid the the the journey words that I know not a lot of people like, just to try and sort sort this out. And and that came under lots of guises. But I did eventually bow out of acting because of nerves, but because of, you know, economic reasons and all sorts sorts of things. Got a proper job and then was at a conference one day, and this incredible speaker called doctor Andy Cope came along and blew the roof off this place. And I looked at him and I thought, I just want some of that. And so Andy and I stayed in touch. I was very pleasantly persistent, I think they call it. And eventually, he sort of said to me, look, Susie, at the moment, his team, he was from a company called the Art of Brilliance, Speakers and Trainers, and his team was full of fellows back then.

Suzie Lavington [00:09:05]:

And he said that the one people we do not resonate very well with are teenage girls. We do lots of work in schools and in businesses. And as you can imagine, teenage girls is kind of a gap. Could you write something? And so I wrote a workshop called A Girl’s Guide to Being Fearless, which is all about building self esteem and confidence in teenage girls. Right? Because that’s why I felt like it really started to unravel for me in my teenage years. Yeah, that became a book. And I’m still working with, Art Brilliance now, but also as a speaker, and speaking coach in my own right and about to launch a business really helping females particularly with their speaking.

Nicky Lowe [00:09:43]:

I love that. And as you say, that kind of quest that you’ve been on, you can see how it’s fueled this passion for the work that you do. And you’ve got kind of real lived experience to bring to this, not only, I imagine, in your acting training, but in that in those experiences of of realizing where we can trip ourselves up from finding our voice and using it and and using it in a way that we want to.

Suzie Lavington [00:10:10]:

Yeah. And knowing, you know, that actually the speaking thing is it is a skill. It is a skill. No one is born with a PowerPoint clicker in their hand. And no one is born on a stage. You know, some people, I think, are, they are introduced to those sorts of situations early on. So they definitely pick up confidence, you know, when others don’t. But the very fact that literally I’m saying 5 or 6 years ago, without a script in my hand, the thought of speaking in front of any size group would make me want to run out the door crying.

Suzie Lavington [00:10:42]:

And actually now to doing it as a living, that’s I think what’s size me up because you kind of go, actually, there are tools, there are tricks, there are tips and techniques. And if you can move, you know, the dial up that much in in a short space of time, I just want you just want to share it with people, you know, and and just that’s it. That’s it.

Nicky Lowe [00:10:59]:

Oh, well, thank you for joining us today to share this because I I’m sure other people like me are sitting, echoing, if they’re listening, going, so how did you do it? But before we dive into the kind of the how, I think it might be worth just taking a step back to just talk about what are some of the common challenges people face, especially when we think about women. You said about girls and women when it comes to public speaking. What what are those challenges?

Suzie Lavington [00:11:24]:

Yeah. You know, I think the most common challenge, especially for women, but this is arguable, what I’m about to say, I think. It’s that mistaken mistaken feeling that why should people listen to what I have to say? Who am I to speak up in front of other people? So those sorts of thoughts and feelings that of course have become known as impostor syndrome. Right? And I think, thankfully, people are moving towards a different understanding around impostor syndrome now. So if you listen to any thought leaders on this subject, they hate the term because it just suggests that it is a syndrome, right? It’s a it’s a condition. It’s an affliction that some of us, mostly women, suffer from. And it’s not that. It’s not a syndrome.

Suzie Lavington [00:12:13]:

It is part of being human. So whether we are male or female, almost all of us feel it, almost all of us. So it’s that overwhelming feeling of I don’t deserve to be here. And any success I have had up to now is a fluke. And I’m less capable of the peep I’m less capable than the people around me and less capable than I really am. And one day, one day very soon, someone is going to find me out. So, so common. I think there’s been a real stack of research though done on imposter syndrome is it became a thing like a phenomenon back in 70s.

Suzie Lavington [00:12:52]:

And so much of that research says that women experience it more than men, because of things like social conditioning, and gender stereotyping. Some corporate cultures that have a lack of female role models in leadership. There might be certain workplace biases, whether they are averse or otherwise. The list goes on. But some research actually says that men experience imposter syndrome every bit as much as women, actually, but that women self report feeling it more than men do. So I think just whatever the truth is there, though, the important thing is that we can work to overcome it. Like, definitely, you know, companies have parts to play, of course, they do in building the sort of equal inclusive environments where everyone can thrive and be listened to. But while it is so common, I think giving in to our imposter too often can be a massive obstacle to achieving what we want to achieve.

Nicky Lowe [00:13:46]:

Yes. I completely get that. And I think there’s as you say, it’s about finding your inner authority, isn’t it? About, actually, I have got something to share, and, you know, it has value. So if people can get past that piece, what then becomes the challenge?

Suzie Lavington [00:14:04]:

So there are common challenges that really will start with mindset. All start with mindset. So speaking really is made up of 2 components, mindset and technique. And I would argue that mindset is 90% of the battle. And I think, you know, the big question is, so why do we fear public speaking? If it’s not actually dangerous, why do we fear it so much? And it really is, it just is all thanks to our ancestors. As so much as you sort of think back, back when we were cave dwelling hunter gatherers, we shared the planet with lots of man eating beasts, didn’t we? So we found ourselves in absolutely a safety in numbers type situation. So we had to form bonds with other people, with other hunter gatherers, in order for us to be accepted into the tribe and survive. Because if we couldn’t form those bonds, yeah, and we didn’t have that sort of reputation, we would be kicked out of the tribe, and we would just have to face these sort of beasts alone.

Suzie Lavington [00:15:10]:

Now, obviously, we live in a far less perilous world today. But we are still petrified, petrified of being abandoned by the tribe. So this fear is deep rooted. We are born with it. And it stays with us our entire lives. So really, the big thing is reputation for us. Reputation is everything to us humans. So our natural instinct is to is to steer clear of anything that might damage that reputation, anything that might make us stand out or look stupid, and just stay firmly inside of our comfort zone.

Suzie Lavington [00:15:40]:

And of course, public speaking puts us out on the skinny branch.

Nicky Lowe [00:15:44]:

Yes. It’s very always almost exposing, isn’t it? You know, you physically are exposed if you’re standing on the stage. But, actually, you’re exposing your thoughts and your stories and your information for it to potentially be judged. And, as you say, that can leave us incredibly vulnerable.

Suzie Lavington [00:16:03]:

Sure can. Sure can. And actually, vulnerability, though, is is a real superpower when it comes to public speaking. And when we say public speaking, you know, a lot of people, they visualise this is you standing on stage in front of 100 or tens of people. But actually, more often, it is you and a handful of other people in a meeting, or it is you and 2 other people in an interview, or it’s you pitching to clients. You know, it is we’re talking when we talk about public speaking, we’re talking about any situation where the stakes are high. So any situation that isn’t just you sat down speaking to a friend over coffee. So that’s kind of what we’re talking about here.

Suzie Lavington [00:16:46]:

Yeah. And I

Nicky Lowe [00:16:46]:

love that you’ve clarified that because it, yeah, it can give the connotations, can’t it, about, well, actually, I’ve got no I’ve got no desire to stand on the stage. So why is this relevant for me? It’s actually, yeah, whenever you’re trying to share a message what that has has high stakes, as you say. And I know this might be an obvious question, but why is it so important for us to overcome our nerves and perhaps anxiety when we’re doing public speaking?

Suzie Lavington [00:17:13]:

So many, so many reasons, so many reasons. But I think for us, for women, especially, and it depends where you do your research on this. But I think the recent stats are that there is less than 32% of leaders across the world are women. And other stats are actually lower. And I’d expect them to be lower, in fact. But I think that given the spectacular things that women can and have done at the top, right, we see this everywhere, I don’t mean that in the world leaders that have been female. I would call that a crying shame. So women make exceptional leaders, exceptional, they are empathetic.

Suzie Lavington [00:17:50]:

I mean, of course, this is generally speaking, but they are excellent communicators. They’re calm under pressure because they have to be. They’re good at bringing people together and fostering more of an environment where people’s voices are heard and everyone’s voices are heard. So it boggles my mind that there are still so few women at the top. And really, all communication comes out as the number one skill that companies look for in their leaders above managerial skills. But actually, leadership and career progression and that sort of stuff aside, the requirement to speak publicly, most of us can’t really run from, don’t we know it? Right. So we will be there will be occasions that pop up again and again that require us to speak in public in some form, okay, whether that isn’t an interview, whether it’s a current job, or it’s a future job, or, you know, a friend’s wedding. And if you can speak confidently and convincingly and freely and authentically, I know that word gets just thrown around a lot now to the point where it’s become a buzzword, but it’s massive.

Suzie Lavington [00:18:56]:

It is key to your connection with the audience, your ability to just be you, Yeah, just to just show up and speak as you. And if you can do that whole world of opportunity, open themselves up, and it really will, it reverberates across every area of your life. So yes, it will help you develop leadership qualities. And it will help you speak up in meetings and networking and interviews and that sort of thing. But socially, and above all, it will help boost your self esteem. And self esteem comes first and confidence follows. So really, you feel deserving to be in every room you walk into. You communicate better in your relationships.

Suzie Lavington [00:19:33]:

You know, you can approach people you want to connect with. Honestly, the list is endless. And I think quite frankly, the world needs more females who are full to the brim with confidence, and asserting their thoughts and ideas. You put this really well. So they’re asserting their thoughts and ideas without pushing them through a bazillion filters first.

Nicky Lowe [00:19:51]:

Yes. I love that. So what do you think makes a great public speaker? You’ve kind of alluded to some of the, I suppose, the the secret sauce as you’ve been talking. But what I would love to hear your perspective on it given that you are in the industry, and I imagine you get to see a wide range of kind of fantastic speakers and, yeah, experience.

Suzie Lavington [00:20:14]:

Oh, okay. So there’s a different little story actually there that you’ve made me think of. So when I went on my little kind of I’m still on this, by the way. I’m not polished. Yeah. I’m not the finished article. I never will be. But when I first started to try and get a hold of these nerves, I would travel to various conferences around the world, actually listening to some of the people who are known to be remarkable speakers.

Suzie Lavington [00:20:39]:

And there was one conference that I can recall, and there was a big lineup of speakers. And the first guy came on stage. And he had everything on paper that you would imagine equated to him being a remarkable speaker, right? So he looked the part, just the sharpest suit on in the world. He owned the stage. And this was at the Armadillo in in Glasgow. This was a massive conference centre. His charisma filled the room. There was not a quibble in his voice.

Suzie Lavington [00:21:12]:

Honestly, just everything he had going for him this this guy. But he didn’t influence me in any way. He didn’t move me. I didn’t connect to anything he was saying. And then after him, this woman came on stage. And I’ve got to be really careful here and quite objective because I’ve got to ask myself, was it a gender thing? Did I connect to the 2nd speaker because she was female versus the first? And I’ve got to say, I genuinely don’t think it was. And I’ve spoken to lots of people about this who were in the room at the time. And so after the first guy, this woman got on stage, and she had this little, Scottish voice and she was visibly and audibly nervous.

Suzie Lavington [00:21:56]:

And she stood behind this podium and she talked about a time in her career, she was a campaigner, and she talked about a time in her career where she campaigned for a guy who was very famous in Scotland at the time. And he had been accused of something heinous that he hadn’t done. And for the 45 minutes that this woman was speaking, you could hear a pin drop. And the whole audience went through every range of emotion. And I walked away from that room thinking, why is that then? Why did the guy who owned the room not move me or influence me in any way? And how then did the woman who got up after him, who was nervous, who stood behind the podium looking at notes, And so what what happened there. And what I’ve come to realize is that remarkable speakers are remarkable speakers, because they connect with their audience by being themselves. And it is as simple as that. It is so you can have the most nervous of speakers, yes, given some guidance and some practice, can become the most influential speakers.

Suzie Lavington [00:23:08]:

We’ve got this as audiences, we have this almost internal BS gauge. And we just know when someone isn’t being them. So even though the guy, you know, the guy before was, it was wonderful. But I just what I felt, it sat in the audience that I just wasn’t getting to him.

Nicky Lowe [00:23:26]:

Oh, so, I mean, there’s so many things to to kind of unravel with that because, I suppose, how do you show up and be you? Because on the one hand, it should be the simplest thing in the world because

Suzie Lavington [00:23:41]:

there’s nobody else but you. But as we

Nicky Lowe [00:23:43]:

know, that can be tricky when you’re putting yourself out your comfort zone. So what do you think that lady was doing that enabled her just to be her?

Suzie Lavington [00:23:58]:

Well, so she aligned all 3 of her brains. Right? And that’s gonna sound really strange. But I think of it as we’re kind of governed by 3 brains. So our brain brain, right, our mind, which is where we store the information, so the words we’re going to say. But then we’ve got our heart brain, right? So our emotions, and that is just simply how we connect to the words we say, before we say them, and as we’re saying them, which, of course, then affects how the audience receives them. So if you want to move your audience, you yourself have to feel something. And then we’ve got our gut, so our instinct. And that is kind of our internal gauge of this is just the thing of just being in the moment, letting yourself speak as you and also letting your environment affect you whilst you’re speaking.

Suzie Lavington [00:24:45]:

Yes. Should I should what I’ve just said, should I just let that sentence linger for a few seconds? Do I actually need to change energy a bit and just change dynamic? Yes, it’s those sorts of things. The the reason so many people are far from remarkable when it comes to speaking is that they find the words they want to say. And then they say them, right. And if they can say them in a loud booming voice, then all the better. Remarkable speakers align all three brains. So yes, they need their mind to pull from it the words they need to speak, but they also color those words with feeling and intuition. Yeah.

Suzie Lavington [00:25:22]:

So they connect with the words they’re saying. They say them as they would when you’re sat and speaking to somebody just over coffee. If you tell them something about a story that day that worried you or angered you or made you deliriously happy, you say it with feeling, and the person you’re speaking to is there with you. So that’s the difference. I think that’s the difference.

Nicky Lowe [00:25:42]:

I love that. I love that because it’s it’s just often we just need that permission to not over, you know, overthink it because as you say, that that guy that came on first, it probably crafted his, his approach within an inch of its life. And it it should have on paper had that impact. And I think it just I noticed my nervous system just went, oh, yeah. We, yeah, we haven’t got to put so much pressure on ourselves that we lose connection to ourselves, to our audience, to our environment as we’re doing this.

Suzie Lavington [00:26:22]:

I see it. I see it. And actually, your audience doesn’t want polish. They want human.

Nicky Lowe [00:26:29]:

Yeah. So if we were to kinda start to distill this down then into perhaps some practical tips or strategies that kind of people listening and me, I’m kind of sitting here listening with my notebook. You know? What can we do to improve our public speaking skills? So it might be, as you say, it’s a skill that can be learned. So what are some of the parts of that? And also the piece that we talked about about reducing anxiety and nerves because it sounds like you really had to learn that along your journey. So I’d love to hear that kind of that story about what you’ve learnt that helps you stay grounded and allow yourself to be you when you’re speaking.

Suzie Lavington [00:27:10]:

Yeah. Well, that’s the key. The shrinking the nerves thing is the key. So, the one thing that gets in the way of us actually accessing that version of ourselves that we are when we are just sat talking to a friend, right, when the stakes aren’t high. The thing that gets in the way of that, of course, is our nerves. Okay, so actually, I just think that authentic that it’s public speaking 101, if you have authenticity, then I think everything else is a nice to have. Yeah, the projection and the clarity and all that sort of stuff. Nice to have.

Suzie Lavington [00:27:37]:

If you don’t have it, then I don’t think anything else matters. Everything else is futile. Okay, so really, it’s the mindset piece first. So the reason we get scared of a situation is that we magnify the situation, it could be anything, it could be a speech, it could be, you know, an interview, it could be an appraisal, anything, we magnify that situation in our head. And then we shrink our capability to deal with it. So the way you get through that is by doing the reverse, shrinking the situation in your head and then magnifying your capability to deal with it. Okay, so you will look at the 2 just as separate. So first shrinking the situation, You have to tell yourself something or visualise something that helps you regain a real perspective.

Suzie Lavington [00:28:32]:

And this sounds oversimplified, but I promise you, it is everything. It’s absolutely the way to go. And just to illustrate this, I’ll tell a little story. It hasn’t aged well, this story though, unfortunately. But I was sat watching this morning. I do work, I promise. But I was sitting watching this morning, I think maybe 7 or 8 months ago, and Katherine Ryan, the comedian was on it. And she had just finished on The Masked Singer.

Suzie Lavington [00:28:57]:

And Philip Scofield asked her or said to her, you don’t get nervous, do you? And she said, no. No, I don’t. I mean, I don’t know what it is. Right? But so let’s, for example, this morning, I could have said to myself in my head, oh, my God, Katherine, you are about to sit on the this morning sofa, and you’re going to be speaking to Holly Willoughby, National Treasures, Holly Willoughby and Phillip Schofield, right? And there are going to be cameras pointed at you and there are going to be millions of people watching from home. Or I can tell myself, you are going to sit on a sofa and you are going to talk to 2 other human beings. And that’s where I send my brain. Okay. So you have to have a conversation.

Suzie Lavington [00:29:46]:

First up, right, and there are a number of kind of steps to this, I think, and we’ll probably get there. And we’ll probably talk about these, hopefully. But the most important thing is to tell yourself or visualise something that shrinks the situation, reminds you, you are not the situation you’re about to go in is not saving babies. You’re not running the country. Okay? And it could be anything actually. So as an as an actor, when I used to be petrified of auditions, simply saying to myself, Susie, so you are you are about to walk into one tiny room to audition for one tiny play that most of the world doesn’t even know is happening. No one’s going to be at, right? You are going to audition in front of 2 or 3 other humans, right, who both go to the toilet and both get scared and both do all the things that you do. And in a few minutes, this is going to be over, Right? So it’s whatever whatever conversation will work in your own head.

Suzie Lavington [00:30:36]:

Some people, and this sounds a bit odd, will remind themselves of their mortality. Right? So for example, I have a I had a wonderful friend at school who was also a performer. And very sad she passed away very sadly at the age of 24. And I would tell myself before going into an audition that had me scared, Susie, Gemma would give her IT to be going into this situation. Come on. This is not life or death. Big or big girl pants on effectively. Yeah.

Suzie Lavington [00:31:05]:

Walk into the room, grab these few minutes with your both hands. And that just changes everything. It changes everything. So it’s that idea of saying something to yourself that shrinks the situation. So that little critic in all of our heads just comes down from the realm of panic, and into comfort. And then just coupled with that, you’ve got to big yourself up. Okay, become bigger than the fear. So just for now, and I’ll leave this quite simply, but remember that whatever follows I am in your head will be.

Suzie Lavington [00:31:38]:

So so many people make the mistake of going into a situation that’s a bit nerve wracking and going, oh, god, I’m so nervous. Oh, god, I’m so nervous. Stop being nervous. Even if you’re telling yourself to stop being nervous, of course, that’s where your focus is going to go. So what happens is your body goes, oh, but your nervous system goes, okay, right, well, you’re nervous. So your wish is our command. And all of a sudden, yeah, you go into fight or flight. So if you can change that in your head to I am excited because Okay, so exactly, you probably heard this, but exactly the same physiological reaction happens when we’re nervous and we’re excited.

Suzie Lavington [00:32:18]:

Right? So sweaty palms, sweaty pits, heart palpitations, all that sort of stuff. What your body then responds to is what you tell your brain you are. Alright, so it could be that you say I’m excited to walk into that room and smash it. Or you might not believe it if you take the pendulum that far. So you might just say something like, I’m looking forward to making a genuine connection with the audience. I’m authentic and real, or I’m at my best when I speak from my heart, and I trust my gut, or I know my stuff, I had earned my seat at the table, whatever it might be. Yeah, so just more rational self talk that swings the situation and bigs yourself up. And just finally, do it.

Suzie Lavington [00:33:02]:

Right. So confidence is the practice bit. Confidence is that feeling you get from the evidence you gather by doing the thing. Alright. So you just have to get out there, put yourself in that uncomfortable position. And every single time you do it, that critic in your head will go, okay. However that went, you didn’t die. And it’s just with every time, it’s just going to come a little bit further down in panic.

Nicky Lowe [00:33:29]:

I love that. The way that you’ve talked about dialing up and dialing down are so practical. And, actually, when I think about it, there’s so much because I know you’ve you’ve put that across in a really compelling way, but there’s so much research and scientific evidence based strategies within there. And but I think that’s so practical and people can really kind of approach their speaking engagements or their public speaking opportunities with that in mind.

Suzie Lavington [00:34:00]:

Yeah. Because the other thing as well, the only other technique that I would say is most important and it’s inextricably linked to mindset, and that is breathing. It is breathing, yeah. So most of us did you gasp Because you know exactly what I mean? Yeah. I think most of us, we don’t breathe properly anyway. So a lot of us breathe like birds. Yes, we snatch short and shallow breasts from the tops of our lungs. So we’re not breathing properly anyway.

Suzie Lavington [00:34:25]:

But also when we’re about to go into a scary situation, we start to snatch even shorter, shallower breasts from the tops of our lungs, which makes us makes us feel worse, which means we snatch even shorter, shallower breasts, right, which then sends us into panic. And the whole thing is a vicious circle. When you breathe properly, slowly and deeply, you are sending the message to your brain, I’m safe here. So it’s like it short circuits fear. Okay. So you are told so often in stressful situations, take deep breaths, but no one tells you why. And that is why. So play about, right, it’s an experiment of 1.

Suzie Lavington [00:35:04]:

Now I love box breathing. Some people breathe in for 4 and out for 6. Yeah. And they just have a longer exhale, because that’s when your heart rate comes down. But if you can put your hands on your stomach, yeah, and as you take that in breath, imagine sending that breath down to your stomach where you’ve placed your hands and filling your stomach up like a balloon. And then you exhale. So whatever technique you want to use, if you can just spend a few minutes doing that before you walk into that situation, of course, there are a lot there are a good few other techniques to go through. But firstly, mindset and then breathing, 2 of the most important things.

Nicky Lowe [00:35:36]:

Brilliant. And it’s interesting. I was interviewing a lady yesterday, Susie, who’s an Australian, a lady called doctor Jodie Richardson, and she’s an anxiety expert. And she shared with me something that I’d not heard before. And I’m wondering you may have done from the technicality of, your training. But he was telling me it’s becoming more and more well known about the polyvagal nerve, about vagus nerve and how important that is with kind of stress and anxiety. And what she was saying, which I didn’t realize, is it starts at the top of your head and basically comes down your face and connects by your ears and and then comes down and drops down through your body. But she was saying when your, vagus nerves get some more high alert, so stress or anxious and it kinda goes from green to amber to to red, it constricts your voice box.

Nicky Lowe [00:36:30]:

So that’s why we get nervous. We go kinda more high pitched. And and I’m imagining from public speaking, voice is important. And I I know you say it’s not, obviously, it’s not the be all and end all because we need to be authentic first. But I imagine, particularly for women, our voice is kind of judged as do we have authority and are we somebody to be listened to. So I imagine that breathing is even more important for us to realize

Suzie Lavington [00:36:55]:

as well. Yeah. So important. Yeah. Absolutely. So your voice is made up of of breath and resonance. It’s really interesting, actually, the way you put that about the vagus nerve because I hadn’t heard that that No. In that order.

Suzie Lavington [00:37:04]:

So that’s really helpful. Did you see, Louis Capaldi’s set at Glastonbury?

Nicky Lowe [00:37:09]:

No. But I wanna watch it back because I saw clips of it. Is this where he basically his Tourette’s kicked in and he couldn’t sing and the and the audience sang it back for him?

Suzie Lavington [00:37:20]:

And actually, and of course, as he has Tourette’s, it’s a difference. But everything suffered as a result of what was happening, the unravelling that was happening in his mind, where actually, I think it made for Glastonbury gold. But and not just that, because actually, I think he did a beautiful job. And it was just the last couple of songs that then the audience sang back to him. And he was just he was you could tell he was berating himself. He was kicking himself. He was getting himself in a real state on stage. I mean, I think one of the just the most beautiful voices we have in the world.

Suzie Lavington [00:37:53]:

And like I said, it did make for some wonderful, unforgettable moments on stage. And I think it just brought the whole kind of crowd together, which was lovely. But just that very idea that actually he went on and he sang the first few songs wonderfully. But as his psychological kind of his little critic was going into overdrive and he was tearing himself apart, it showed up physically. And the first thing it attacked was his voice. And so he just, you know, he was struggling. It was almost as if he had got laryngitis on stage. And although he was very open in admitting that he was doing it himself.

Suzie Lavington [00:38:25]:

So absolutely, the voices were the first things to go. And I think for females, often, it’s not just us, but we can suffer from something called vocal fry. So if we don’t get that support from our breath by breathing deep deeply, but also being comfortable and relaxed on stage, you’re so right, everything tenses up. And there are some people who think that projection, So really, it’s about thinking down, like being anchored. Breathing deeply, being supported by your posture first off, your posture then supports your breath and then your breath supports your voice. But being in that relaxed state is so key.

Nicky Lowe [00:39:09]:

Yes. I love the examples that you use because I think they really, really can bring it to mind as well as understand it kind of logically. And so we’ve talked about kind of confidence. We’ve talked about what makes a good public speaker. And I’m wondering because often we’re now doing more in virtual or digital kind of environments. Does any is there anything we need to pay attention to or do

Suzie Lavington [00:39:43]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are so many rules that still apply. Yeah. So the things that you would do in terms of getting your mind into a most resourceful state, making your content stand out, you know, making it novel, telling compelling stories, all that sort of stuff rather than relaying information, which is a lot of people, which is what a lot of people do when they get an opportunity to present. But there are definitely some differences. So I think online, your audience’s attention span is likely to be less than usual. Because we’re more distracted, really, quite frankly.

Suzie Lavington [00:40:16]:

So to think of ways to grab your audience from the off, yeah, just have them sitting forward in their chair, switching their brains on just thinking, okay, this is going to be a bit different. Right? And that might be it’s an icebreaker, or it’s a question that gets people talking, or you play a captivating bit of footage, if it’s appropriate. Yeah. So think about how I can create wow moments, just right from the beginning. And of course, that’s true, actually of in person presentations. But I think with online, you kind of got to do it a bit more. So you’ve got to think of ways to break up the monosony of just 1 person talking at people and bring your audience in as much as you can. And I think as well with online, just make it shorter.

Suzie Lavington [00:41:02]:

Make it succinct. I think these meetings and presentations or presentations that go on for 2 or 3 hours, we’ve all been there, haven’t we? I think those things, they’re just shooting themselves in the foot, because eventually everyone’s just going to drop everything and no one’s going to take a single thing from what you say. And then just a couple of technique things. So eye contact, when you’re in the room, obviously, you want little moments of connection with different people around the room, and you want to meet the audience where they are. So remember, you might have someone most behind you. Remember, you’ve got someone right at the back. And there’s no hard and fast rules to it. If you are in the moment, your gut will tell you when to move on, right? You’ve made a nice connection with somebody and then move on.

Suzie Lavington [00:41:44]:

And of course, when you’re online, you can’t look at everyone on the screen, right? So it’s a bit different. I used to think as a trainer, you know, when the world first went pop, and everything went online, I used to think when I was delivering a keynote, that I had to stare at the the red dots or the white dots because then everyone on the other side of the camera would think that I was looking to Ellie and them. Now that sends you crazy. As a speaker, just looking at one single doll said, yeah, and also you don’t get the cues back from your audience, which is really important. So simply just looking at people on the screen is absolutely grand, okay, absolutely grand. However, you might want to, when you really want to punch up something you’re saying, you might want to look directly down that camera, just for just for that moment, just whilst you’re delivering that particular message. Yeah, so I kind of play around with it a little bit. So you can you can do that.

Suzie Lavington [00:42:41]:

And then of course, with body language, you haven’t got all of your body to convey your message like you do when you’re in the room. So just be mindful of that. And some people say that I know there’s research done particularly when we were all online of people advising that you you I don’t know how to do it actually this, but you turn your own view off so you can’t see yourself because it’s more fatiguing. But actually, I think it’s from a feedback point of view, I think it’s really important. So if I’m being really expressive, but I’m, you know, people can only see a square of me, and so they can only see, you know, my thumb occasionally flick up into the into the square. That’s quite distracting. Yeah, so just be mindful of where you are and what can be seen. And if you need your hands to make a point, then you’ve got to bring them up far enough for everyone to be able to see them.

Suzie Lavington [00:43:30]:

So it’s that sort of thing. But also just think about how, you know, how are you comfortable, It may be that you want to stick your laptop on an ironing board and stand up and present. Yes, as long as they can see you know, most of your torso and your hands and your and your face, then all good. You just work out what works for you.

Nicky Lowe [00:43:51]:

That’s a really good point, actually. And and and I love that piece you said earlier about just do it because it’s only from the experimenting that you learn and that the confidence develops. And, yeah, you start to to build your identity as somebody who can be a really great energy. I love that word remarkable speaker. I loved

Suzie Lavington [00:44:12]:

that. Yeah. And you can’t ever get better and look good at the same time. You will fall on your face and probably in front of people. And I have done it a number of times because it’s the only way I I I had to get better. You know? And actually trying to become a speaker in the 1st place. And I had to pilot various keynotes and all that sort of stuff. And there were a good few times I just wanted to run off that stage.

Suzie Lavington [00:44:38]:

But it’s that bit. You just you you have to lean into it. You’ve got to lean into it and you’ve got it in it. And it’s a bit messy, first off. You know, and the next time will be a bit better and the next time slightly better. And then the next time you might feel like you’ve gone back to square 1, but the trajectory is going in the right direction. So, yeah, do do the thing.

Nicky Lowe [00:44:55]:

I love that. So we’re going to come on in a minute to how people can find out more about you and your work and how you might be able to help them in this area as well. But if there’s just one thing that you want someone listening to this conversation to take away, what would you want that to be?

Suzie Lavington [00:45:14]:

I think it is the overarching message that mindset is 90% of the battle, right? So if you can get a just get yourself a pre speech routine, right, and that can be 3 or 4 steps, Right? You’ll absolutely want it to start with more helpful, empowering self talk. Yeah, that shrinks the situation and reminds you of how capable you are to deal with it. But it must might also include a visualisation technique, where you, I mean, there are loads out there, but again, stepping into a more confident version of you or whatever that might be. It can also be a breathing technique. And then you might want to play some music that chills you out or pumps you up. Yes, if you can get a little routine. And again, experiment of 1, find out what works for you. That just gets you in the most resourceful headspace, then you are going to better be able to access more of that version of you that you are when you’re sitting down and speaking to a friend.

Nicky Lowe [00:46:16]:

So how can people, as I say, find out about you and your work, Susie? Where would you point them towards? And I can put all the details in the show notes.

Suzie Lavington [00:46:23]:

Oh, yeah. Lovely. Lovely. Thank you very much. So, Instagram, if you don’t want Insta, sincerely, Suze, you can see me on there. LinkedIn, my knees still need to get better at, but you’ll find me as Susie Lavington. Art of Brilliance website, which is artofbrilliance.co.uk. Let me say that again in English, artofbrilliance.co.uk.

Suzie Lavington [00:46:44]:

So my trainer page is on there, lots of vids and stuff from me, their details of all the courses and things. But we’re about to launch, so about to launch the fearless fem, which is the the speaking academy for for women that I was speaking about. And we will be, or we are actually at the moment, but not much is there at the minute. The fearless_fem. That’s us on Instagram, and just about to launch the website, and that’s the fearlessfem dotco.uk.

Nicky Lowe [00:47:12]:

Oh, that sounds amazing. And I imagine right up the street of, my audience. So I’ll absolutely add all those links in, to the show note page. It just leads me to say, Susie, thank you. I’ve really loved our conversation, and I really appreciate you coming in and sharing your insights and your quest with us because it’s it’s really lovely to hear somebody that’s gone on that journey that, you know, isn’t somebody that’s just a born speaker. And, oh, I’m in my, you know, my zone of genius, and it all comes so easy to me is that, no. You walked this path.

Suzie Lavington [00:47:46]:

Yeah. No. I was never that. Yeah. Fabulous. Thank you so much. What a pleasure. What a pleasure.

Nicky Lowe [00:47:55]:

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