Nicky Lowe [00:00:06]:
Hi, it’s Nicky Lowe and welcome to the Wisdom for Working Mums podcast show. I’m your host and for nearly two decades now I’ve been an executive coach and leadership development consultant. And on this show I share evidence based insights from my coaching, leadership and psychological expertise and inspiring interviews that help women like you to combine your work, life and motherhood in a more successful and sustainable way. Join me and my special guests as we delve into leadership and lifestyle topics for women, empowering you to thrive, one conversation at a time. I’m so happy that you’re here. And let’s get on with today’s episode. Returning to work after having a baby can be one of the most emotionally complex and vulnerable transitions in a woman’s life. For too many, it’s not the empowering reintegration it should be.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:01]:
It’s a return met with anxiety, invisibility and systems that haven’t evolved to support working parents. And today’s guest not only understands that reality, she’s doing something about it. Clare is the founder of and Culture and the author behind the incredibly powerful report, how to Support Returning Parents From Boardroom to Babies and Back Again. This groundbreaking piece of research is based on the lived experiences of over 350 women and lays bare the hidden cost of unsupported returns to work. It’s honest, it’s heart wrenching, and it’s deeply important. But Claire doesn’t just bring passion, she brings expertise. As a seasoned business psychologist with over 15 years of experience, Claire has spent her career using psychological insights to drive meaningful, lasting change in workplaces. From leading HR teams to serving as a head of talent and leadership development for an organization of over 30, 48,000 people, Clare has worked as a strategic partner to executive boards and businesses of every shape and size.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:11]:
She knows what real change looks like and she’s here to help create it. And on a personal note, I’m lucky enough to call Clare not only a colleague, but also a friend. I’ve seen firsthand the heart, insight and courage she brings to her work and I’m so excited to share her wisdom with you today. So let’s not keep you any longer. Let’s welcome Claire. So welcome Claire. I am so delighted to have you here on the podcast show because we’ve been talking about this for a little while, so it’s great to have you here.

Clare Radford [00:02:43]:
Thank you. It’s so exciting to be here. Thanks, Nikki.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:46]:
And we were also. I was also just reflecting that we were together this weekend, weren’t we? Celebrating your very Special birthday. So it was lovely to see you personally this weekend and now to be kind of catching up professionally.

Clare Radford [00:03:01]:
I know it’s nice and I am, I must admit, I’m wearing far fewer sequins today than when you last saw me.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:07]:
Oh, you looked fabulous though. That is what like. That was one hell of a birthday outfit. I loved it. You just looked stunning in it. So, yeah. Well, you’re here today to talk about this brilliant report that you’ve put together. And at the start of the report you share kind of a very personal and emotional reflection on your own return to work after your maternity leave.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:29]:
Can you share a bit about that journey and really what’s behind the inspiration behind this report?

Clare Radford [00:03:36]:
Yeah, definitely. So I think like many women, my return to work after having my first child was not fantastic, unfortunately. So my maternity leave wasn’t entirely straightforward. My daughter was born with some physical difficulties and I had a lot of anxiety about returning to work. So I had the date ready, it was all lined up. I knew when I was going back and as the date got closer and closer, I started to feel more anxious about it. Felt like a really difficult experience building up to it. But anyway, arranged all the child care jumped in my car.

Clare Radford [00:04:14]:
It was a two hour commute to get to the office back in those days. And I arrived at the office on day one full of these mixed feelings of, you know, guilt, anxiety, anticipation and kind of 9am came and went. There’s no sign of my line manager, so fine, I’m just kind of getting on, trying to remember my password, that kind of stuff. 11am comes and goes, still no sign of line manager and it got to about 2 in the afternoon and I got a text message from him saying, so sorry, completely forgot it was your first day back. Can we arrange to catch up another day? And honestly, my stomach just fell. Like I felt so ill at the fact that this had been a huge event for me and it was such a big buildup and it hadn’t even registered on his week, you know, that that was my first day back at work. So I actually took myself off, had a little cry in the car on the way home, but really became very aware that I was being treated differently now that I was back at work. So not just that first experience of being forgotten about on day one, but I noticed I wasn’t given the same opportunities when I came back after having a child as well and a bit later in my career.

Clare Radford [00:05:30]:
So after I’d had my second child, I was working as a head of talent, a UK business. And I noticed that a lot of the women coming back from maternity leave were sort of quietly disappearing. Either they were leaving the business or they were just disappearing into the ether. They weren’t getting those same opportunities. They weren’t being talked about in talent rooms again. And so I started to get really curious about what was going on. And I’ve basically been collecting stories since that point. I’ve NOW collected almost 400 stories and have published that because I’d love other people to understand, understand the experiences that many women having.

Nicky Lowe [00:06:11]:
Thank you for sharing that. And how old are your children now?

Clare Radford [00:06:14]:
So I’ve got four and a six year old.

Nicky Lowe [00:06:17]:
So people, context, you know, you’ve been collecting this over a significant amount of time. You’ve kind of had this kind of burning passion that’s kind of been driving your curiosity. And I love that you’re kind of collecting stories because Rene Brown talks about stories being data with soul. And so you’re collecting data, but it’s kind of the soul that sits behind it that is so important. And as we’ll dive into this, I think kind of at times really sad, isn’t it, about the stories that you’re hearing.

Clare Radford [00:06:45]:
Yeah, really sad. And I’m just so grateful to all the women that shared their stories with me because they’re really personal and they’re really difficult. And I think one thing that has really struck me is that every single woman that I’ve spoken to can remember in great detail how they were treated when they return to work.

Nicky Lowe [00:07:03]:
Yeah. And I think that’s such a powerful story that you shared about. Like this was such a pivotal moment for you personally and professionally and that often it is so overlooked in organizations and by line managers and the impact of that. And it’s the unintended unconscious impact, isn’t it? So what have been some of the most surprising or perhaps painful stories that you’ve heard during your, your research?

Clare Radford [00:07:32]:
Honestly, there are so many, but a few that spring to mind. There was one lady I spoke to who was directly told not to talk about her children in the workplace. They didn’t want her talking about children that was not acceptable as part of their culture. But she was welcome to talk about pets and that was a direct quote from her line manager. You know, just I remember reading that and almost falling off my chair. The fact that somebody would say that. So just some quite outrageous stuff like that. There’s also loads of stories of women who almost suffered in physical pain when they returned to work because they were still breastfeeding.

Clare Radford [00:08:15]:
They were too embarrassed to ask for private space to pump milk, so they suffered in silence or they pumped milk in the toilets, which is highly unsanitary. And there was almost just this embarrassment that actually they were going through a really physical experience as well. And then I think finally there, there were loads of themes about gaslighting and bullying. So almost a sense that these women were being tolerated back in the workplace. Not welcomed with open arms, but tolerated and meet. Made to feel that they were a bit of an inconvenience really, and not being seen and valued for the talent that they really were.

Nicky Lowe [00:08:54]:
Just. It’s making me, my eyes prickle with like, I can feel tears around just the dehumanization of. You can’t talk about your children, but you can talk about your pets. The guilt, the shame of, as you say, no longer feeling like you fit in or belong or that it’s almost like you’ve done something wrong, kind of procreating and bringing life into the world. And also, and I know this is a conversation we have on so many occasions talked about this fact of these are women. And I know you would have been an absolute high potential, like accelerating through the ranks. And then you return after having a child and it’s now, oh no, you’re no longer seen as kind of somebody we want to see as having future potential. And these are women.

Nicky Lowe [00:09:49]:
And I get, I get really upset about it because I can see that this, if we’re not careful, is going to be my daughter’s journey. You know, she’s very academic, she excels and she’ll apply herself, she’s very conscientious. She and I see this in so many women in the workplace. They have, you know, outperformed the boys at school, often outperformed the men in the workplace to almost earn their place and their right to be this kind of accelerated talent. And then the rugs just pulled from underneath them because it’s like, oh no, you’ve now got a baby. That all that work, all that hard work, all that dedication means nothing now.

Clare Radford [00:10:28]:
And it’s, it’s astounding, isn’t it? And I, I often say, I have a little phrase that I use when I’m talking to businesses and line managers, which is that your ambition doesn’t fall out with your placenta when you have a baby. Right? You’re still that same ambitious, high performing, high potential individual that you were before. Before. You just need to be supported perhaps in slightly different ways. And it’s astounding to me because we know As a society, we want women to have children. That’s how our society grows. We also know that we want and need these women in the workplace. We want to retain them.

Clare Radford [00:11:01]:
They’re great talent, as you say, and we know that adds to our economic stability, but we can’t seem to marry the two. We haven’t got it right. And there’s still a bit of a stigma about support supporting in particular working mums, I would say.

Nicky Lowe [00:11:14]:
And that’s why I think what you’ve done here with this report is so important and I think the timing as well, because obviously this has, you know, this is not a new issue, but I think there’s new nuances around. You know, what, what we’re hearing about, DE and I, both at a global level, but like in the recent week with the local elections and reform doing well, and I can’t remember the reform leader, but coming out going, if you’re in a D I position, be worried because you know we’re going to take you down. And you’re like, oh, my God. And if you think working from home is an option, it’s no longer. And it’s like that rhetoric is really dangerous and impacts, you know, the demographic we’re talking about here more significantly than most.

Clare Radford [00:11:57]:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think any, you know, anyone that’s listening that works in a DNI role or is in business, I would really encourage them to look at the data and look at the evidence rather than the rhetoric. Because what we know is that doing these DE&I initiatives is not just lip service. There are real gains to be had. And likewise offering flexible working and remote working, we know the impact that can have on productivity. So I would really encourage people, do your own homework, check the evidence and then make decisions based on that.

Nicky Lowe [00:12:31]:
I love it, love that. And that’s the biggest the power of what you bring. As a business psychologist, you know, you’re very evidence based and that’s, you know, I think, so important to highlight. So your report highlighted that over 70% of mothers felt anxiety or dread about returning to work. And as we’ve said, this is, you know, this isn’t a new problem. This has been going on for decades. But why do you think that’s still the case in 2025?

Clare Radford [00:12:59]:
I think there’s a few factors, to be honest. I do think there is this huge shift that you go through when you become a parent and it’s so all encompassing, as you know, Nikki. But then when the time comes to return to work, we feel this pull to go back to our former selves. And that shift from changing nappies and being consumed by being a parent to then come back into the boardroom or leading a team managing a budget. It’s such a difficult transition and people put a lot of pressure on themselves to revert back to the person they used to be. But the truth is you’re not, you’re changed as a person, your life is changed. And actually there’s some really nice research that’s come out of New Zealand that shows people who try to revert back to their former selves have these increased feelings of anxiety. Actually, by accepting and incorporating, incorporating this new blended identity of parent and professional, you can reduce some of those feelings of stress and anxiety as well.

Clare Radford [00:14:00]:
So I think there really is something in the psychology of becoming a parent and returning to work. But there are also some other more practical external mechanisms that are getting in the way. I think, as the report shows, parents are not being supported in the right way when they return to work. They’re expected to just fit back in. But I also think there’s some broader societal issues at play here. So something that you and I talk about a lot is the cognitive load. I think typically women are shouldering more of that burden. So they’re not just navigating, return to work, they’re also, you know, handling the stress and the pressure of the household admin, the child care admin.

Clare Radford [00:14:42]:
And this is a lot of things to take on. It’s a lot of cognitive load, a lot of overwhelm. And then the final thing I would say is I think navigating and paying for child care in the UK is a source of stress in itself. I was just chatting to my hairdresser a couple of days ago and she’s self employed. She would love to work full time, but her daughter has been on a wait list for two years for a local child care setting and she still cannot find a place for her daughter. So it’s impossible for some of these women to navigate that and get themselves back into the full time workforce. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:15:20]:
Oh, that’s a really good kind of picture of this is multifactorial, isn’t it? We’re talking about some of the practical but also some of the psychological, the personal versus the professional and how those all interweave and it becomes this kind of web that as we’re trying to still progress and as you say, you know, our ambition hasn’t gone, but it’s almost like we’re getting caught up in this web of how the hell do we navigate this and not lose our mind or our health or our kind of, or our kind of homes. Because as you say, from a financial perspective, to put children into childcare is so significant. Even if you can find it, you know, can we afford it? Yeah, there’s so much in that. And your research also indicated a really kind of alarming finding was that more than half of returners at a major UK employer left within a year. I mean, that’s a huge leak in the kind of talent pipeline. So what did that kind of indicate? What did you find from that?

Clare Radford [00:16:28]:
It was really shocking. So there is some broader research that says, you know, across the UK we’re probably seeing about 50% of females leave within a two year window of returning to work. But I did this deep dive case study for one particular client which showed that these women just were not being supported in the right way and so were choosing to take themselves out of that organisation. And I think the impact of that, whilst really stark for that organization, it does shine a light on the fact that this is a hard issue. It is a talent retention issue. If you don’t get it right, your talent will vote with its feet and they will go. And we know anybody who works in recruitment or HR or leadership knows that there are real talent shortages in the UK at the moment. I don’t know anyone in business that can afford to lose talent at that rate.

Clare Radford [00:17:18]:
So I think it was really stark. And what was interesting is I don’t know businesses that are tracking this data or looking at it.

Nicky Lowe [00:17:25]:
I absolutely agree because it’s also across that what I would call mothering pipeline is often, and I know this anecdotally from working with my clients, you know, they might be able to ride out the first couple of years because obviously they’ve, you know, they’ve taken a parental leave and then they anticipate that. Oh my, that first year back is probably going to be tricky, but then they expect it to get easier, but it doesn’t necessarily get easier and actually there’s just different stuff to navigate. So it might be when the children go from a private nursery setting where it’s maybe like an eight or six hours to then going into the school system where it’s a nine till three and actually how do you get childcare around that? And so it’s actually measuring it across that pipeline a little bit further to say you might not actually lose them in the first two years, but what’s happening in the first five years? You know, let’s get really curious about what is the data showing us. And what does that tell us about the support that’s needed and the interventions that, as you say, retain our top talent and make sure that we’re. Everybody’s feeling like they can thrive.

Clare Radford [00:18:35]:
Yeah, definitely. And I think this is a trend across all working parents. It’s not just mothers. And although my report does concentrate on the experience of mothers, I know that there is a huge amount of work to do also to support working dads, because what we know is if we can get the dad supported in the right way, that in turn helps the mothers as well. But you’re right, it’s across the whole life cycle. And dealing with children who have additional, additional needs or additional caring responsibilities just adds even more pressure. We know that children get sick and parents on average are taking eight to 10 unpaid days each year to look after sick children. And that doesn’t stop when they start school.

Clare Radford [00:19:15]:
That continues. And then you have more challenges around adolescent mental health as well. So as they’re getting older, you’re quite right. Those challenges just shift and change and the way people need to be. Be supported shifts and changes as well. And I don’t think organizations are set up currently to support people in that way. And I definitely don’t think line managers are particularly equipped to have those conversations.

Nicky Lowe [00:19:39]:
Yeah, and it’s really interesting because just hearing you talk, Claire, I was listening to a snippet of a podcast interview with a lady called Emma. I can’t remember, is it. I don’t know how to pronounce her last name, but she’s this phenomenal entrepreneur. She’s British, but she lives in the US she’s worked with the Kardashians around Skims and Good America. She’s like this multi, multi, multi millionaire, like, young dynamic. She’s been on Dragon’s Den and she’s been interviewed on the Stephen Bartlett podcast. And she’s got four children. I think they’re all under.

Nicky Lowe [00:20:13]:
I want to say under 10. And the snippet of this podcast was about work life balance. And I think Stephen’s asking her, like, how do you do it all? And her. The snippet that they’ve chosen is work life balance isn’t the employer’s responsibility. It’s you as an individual to figure that out and take responsibility for it. And I don’t disagree with that in some ways, but I think it’s a joint partnership because we can go, well, your adolescent’s mental health is not my issue as an employer. As your line manager, that’s a personal issue. But what we know the research shows that the, the mental health of the parent in the workplace has a direct correlation to the mental health of the children.

Nicky Lowe [00:20:59]:
So if your people aren’t thriving, neither are their children. And you can go, that’s not my problem. But these are people that are going to be in society that are going to be, you know, the economy of the future, you know, the culture of our country as a future. It has an impact whether you choose to admit it or not. So I love that you’re kind of raising the awareness of this. And many of the women you spoke to in the report used some really kind of compelling words like grieving, feeling invisible, the guilt when they’re describing their return to work. So what do you think needs to shift to make workplaces feel more safer and more supportive? Because you said obviously there’s changes that need to happen. Have you identified what they are?

Clare Radford [00:21:48]:
Yeah, I think so. In the report I pull out five, what I’m calling game changers as a, as a kind of starting point for organizations. And these were five things that all of the women I spoke to pointed at. They were levers that would have significantly improved the experiences that they had. What I would say first of all though is if you’re working in an organization or a business business, you do need to talk to your people because it will be unique and it will be different for every organization and every individual. But on a broad level, I’ve found five things that I think would make a real difference. The first is line manager education. So I think there was some Gartner research recently that said 85% of new people managers received zero training in how to manage people.

Clare Radford [00:22:37]:
And that’s just general, you know, basics, not even how to manage people who are going through key life transitions such as returning to work. So in a way, it’s no surprise that these line managers are struggling because they don’t know how to have those conversations, they don’t know what to expect when people are returning to work. Many of these managers perhaps don’t have children of their own or did a very long time ago, or they weren’t the primary caregiver. They perhaps don’t understand or underestimate the impact of, of sleep deprivation on your cognitive function, on your mood as well. So I think that the number one thing I would point to is line manager education is key. And a lot of the people that I spoke to in the organisations I speak to are full of very well intentioned line managers. They, they want to do the right thing. They’re good people but they’re just not equipped to have those conversations.

Clare Radford [00:23:32]:
And there’s a bit of a fear, I think, about doing the right wrong thing. So they just do nothing. Yeah, and that’s almost as bad I would say.

Nicky Lowe [00:23:39]:
And I also think that’s so important from the organizations that might have the best policies, the best procedures in place. But often you hear it’s those individual line managers don’t understand them or don’t implement them effectively. It kind of all falls down, doesn’t it?

Clare Radford [00:23:55]:
Absolutely. I mean that is genuinely the, the point number two on my Game changers is you have to have a culture built around your policies. Policy alone is not enough. And in particular I would point at your flexible working policy again. I spoke to so many organisations that on paper have these fantastic offerings. They, they’ve set out to really work with individuals that want flexible working but it’s not lived and breathed, it’s not understood, it’s not applied appropriately by line managers or applications are just dismissed out of hand because before they’re even considered. So the next thing I would say is really look at not just the policies on paper, but how are you embedding that within your culture and line manager behaviour as well.

Nicky Lowe [00:24:39]:
Love that.

Clare Radford [00:24:41]:
Then number three is something around emotional support and we’ve touched on the whole range of emotions that people experience when they’re returning back to work and I think this is often forgotten when we’re supporting returners. We might get them access to the building, we might touch on flexible working, but thinking about their emotional needs is often forgotten. So providing targeted support through mentoring, coaching or a returners program can really help to go into those deeper levels of emotion and complexity. And that sounds like a really nice thing to have. But also we know that it impacts the speed at which people return to high performance. So there is an ROI for businesses to invest in that kind of support as well.

Nicky Lowe [00:25:28]:
Love that. And sorry, no, I was going to say I love that because as you say it’s so important and often it can be dismissed but as you say, if you can link it to the ROI as well, it makes it so much more compelling for organizations not just to do the right thing because it’s the right thing, but.

Clare Radford [00:25:43]:
Yeah, exactly. And then the fourth thing I’ve talked about is getting access to a program or a toolkit which helps your returners with self advocacy skills. And this was a really interesting one because I’ve not seen this come up in the research before but of all the women I spoke to, the ones who rated themselves more highly on self advocacy skills, had significantly better return to work. And if we think it through, it almost, you know, moderates the impact of a bad line manager or bad systems and processes. Because if you’re able to really clearly and confidently advocate for yourself and what you need, you’ll be able to navigate your return to work much more easily. So I would say it’s an absolute no brainer to say to all of your returners, let me talk to you about self advocacy. Here’s what it looks like. We encourage you to put these skills into practice and be really clear with what you need from us when you return to work.

Nicky Lowe [00:26:43]:
And I think that’s so important because as you say, logically it makes absolute sense. And actually as empowered women, you would think that would happen naturally, but not underestimating the systemic impact that disempowers these women right at the point where they need to feel as empowered as possible because they almost, it’s as you say, if you’re, if you’re told, don’t mention your children. It’s like, how can I possibly show up in the workplace and go, this is what I need for me and my family to thrive and me to show, show up at work. If you’re, if you’ve got to disown that part of yourself that needs it.

Clare Radford [00:27:17]:
Oh, totally. And I think a lot of us perhaps growing up in this society, British culture, we’re almost taught not to advocate for ourselves. You know, don’t make noise, don’t rock the boat, stay small, say, stay quiet. And so many of us use self advocacy as a selfish act, but it is not selfish. It’s about being at your best as quickly as you possibly can and getting your organization to understand what that looks like as well.

Nicky Lowe [00:27:44]:
Brilliant.

Clare Radford [00:27:46]:
Let me just share number five. So the fifth game changer was around enabling access to other working parents as a supportive network. So whether this is within the workplace or outside of, all of the women that I spoke to said they really would have benefited from having empathetic, supportive people that, that understand what they’re going to. And now if that can be set up within the workplace, it also enhances that sense of belonging. So feeling like it’s okay to bring that part of yourself to work and that there are other people in your organisation that understand exactly what you’re going through.

Nicky Lowe [00:28:21]:
Oh fantastic. And I know that we’ll give people kind of access to get that report so they can dive down into that in more detail, but I think those five areas are really important. You Also talk in the report about masking. Can you tell me a bit more about what you mean by that and actually what’s the cost of that?

Clare Radford [00:28:41]:
Yeah, so masking is exactly as we’ve described, a little bit where you feel you have to hide some part of your life, your personality, your character, your identity, when you’re in the workplace. And there’s been extensive research with these, the LGBTQ community on this topic. And we know from that research that masking has significant negative effects on your mental health and well being. So the fact that some of the women I spoke to were being forced to mask the fact that they’d had children to mask that they’re returning to work after maternity leave, we know will have a significant negative impact on their mental health and well being. And that in turn will impact businesses in terms of productivity, performance, perhaps the number of days off sick that somebody will be having as well. So there is a really compelling reason for businesses to encourage and celebrate people’s identities, in the fullest sense of that word, to bring your whole self to work and make sure there are safe places to have conversations about the challenges of being a working parent.

Nicky Lowe [00:29:48]:
Yeah, I love that because we talked earlier about the cognitive load, but there’s a huge emotional load that comes from that masking, isn’t it? It’s like we’re, we’re having to manage our emotions and the impact of those on those around us more than. More than others.

Clare Radford [00:30:03]:
Yes. And I don’t know about you, but I remember when I returned to work the first time I was working at a big consultancy firm and I really felt that, you know, the fact that I had to really try not to talk about my child, not to refer to the fact I’d been on maternity leave and actually a lot of that pressure was self imposed, but it was exhausting. It takes energy and it takes, you know, some mental load in order to do that masking. And that energy could have been put to more, much more positive things like actually delivering my work and being really impactful.

Nicky Lowe [00:30:37]:
Yeah. And I think this talks so much to the, the experience of professional women and, and you know, a lot of us are over functioners, you know, we’re high achievers because we over function. And I know that my own journey was feeling like I’d got to be this ideal worker, so I’d got to work. Like I didn’t have anything that would distract me from just putting all into my work. And then I was trying to be this ideal mother and like work mother. Like I didn’t have my work and just getting squeezed in the middle of those. And as you say, if we’re trying to mask in those different ways ways it just becomes all encompassing. So what’s one thing that you would love every CEO, HR manager, talent manager to read in your report and act on? Like what is the message to them?

Clare Radford [00:31:28]:
I think the one big takeaway for those type of people is the cost of getting it wrong. And I’m not just talking about the cost for the individual, but the cost for the UK economy. So it’s estimated that losing this talent is probably costing UK businesses in excess of 3 billion each year. There is a real bottom line issue here, there is a real talent retention issue here. This is not a nice to have and if you don’t lean into is going to come back to bite you on the bum. So that would be the one takeaway. This is not soft and fluffy, this is a business issue.

Nicky Lowe [00:32:08]:
And I really appreciate you giving your voice to this Claire, because I know that, you know, you have a really strong commercial background in what you’ve done and I think often this, this issue can be treated as like a feminist woke kind of, oh, this is a nice to have or it’s and it’s like, no, as you say, this is essential to get this wrong is having an impact financially, let alone all the other ripple impacts. So I’ love that you’ve given your voice to this in this way. So if we now look forward around actually what does an ideal return to work experience look like and if businesses got this right, kind of what would that look like for both the individual and the organization?

Clare Radford [00:32:51]:
Well, I was lucky enough to talk to some individuals who did have a great experience. So we know what it looks like like when companies get it right. And from the research that looks like great open lines of communication and that starts before people go on maternity leave, having that conversation with line managers, with supportive mentors, with a network of people about what to expect during maternity leave, what to expect when you return back from work. Also fully utilising things like kids kick days, so keeping in touch days. And I can’t tell you how many managers I’ve spoken to who have no idea what that is, let alone how to facilitate a good keeping in touch day. It looks like individualized return to work plans, whether that’s ramping up hours or doing some part time hours just to start to get used to that dual life of child and job. It also looks like having a deep level of understanding of yourself. So a lot of the report is focused on what businesses and line managers can do.

Clare Radford [00:33:58]:
But there is a section of the report for the individuals returning to start thinking about things like reconnecting with their identity, thinking about their values and what’s really important to them, getting organised, doing a dry run of the childcare drop off so that you know how long the commute is going to take you. So there are certain things that individuals can do for themselves as well. And then finally, I think a really good return to work just looks like feeling welcomed and feeling that you belong back in that workplace. There is a quote in the report just to drive this home that says something like, I will never ever forget the way my company treated me when I returned to work. They need to do better. And what I would say is all of the women I know are talking about this all of the time. So if you get it wrong, they will remember and they will tell people. But if you get it right, they will also shout from the rooftops and they will advocate for you as a business.

Nicky Lowe [00:35:00]:
Oh yeah, I think that’s so important because it impacts your brand whether you know it or not. So what small impactful steps can an organization take from like if they’re listening to this and go, oh my God, okay, this is something I need to look at. I don’t think we’re doing this as well as we could. What is something they could do today that moves them in the right direction?

Clare Radford [00:35:26]:
Of course I’m going to say read the report. First of all, there is, there’s so much data in there. There are stories, as I’ve said, but there’s also some really insightful data and actionable tips. But I would also say talk to your people, you know, set up a confidential focus group with a group of working parents and ask some fantastic questions. But you have to be willing to listen. You might not hear what you want to hear, but actually that’s really helpful data. Once you’ve got that data, you can start to then think about something you could do differently. And in the report I share lots of tips and strategies you can implement for free or very, very low cost.

Clare Radford [00:36:08]:
You know, setting up a working parents network within your workplace doesn’t take time and energy or money, but it will benefit people greatly.

Nicky Lowe [00:36:18]:
Brilliant. So if you’ve got somebody that’s a working mum that’s listening to this, especially maybe those preparing to return or they’ve just returned and they’re feeling isolated at work, what’s one message you’d want to leave them with?

Clare Radford [00:36:37]:
I would probably say you are going through a monumental shift. Don’t underestimate that because I think we, many of us have a tendency to minimize our experience. We just put our head down and we say, right, I’m just going to get on with it. But what you’re going through is one of the, the biggest shifts that you could ever experience. So you need to be kind to yourself, ask for help where you can and balance it with advocating for your needs. So really think about how you can clearly ask for the support that you want to make things better in the workplace. Because that’s not selfish. That doesn’t just benefit you, it benefits society because you’ll be a better mother, a better partner, but it also benefits the business.

Clare Radford [00:37:25]:
As we’ve already talked about, there is a hard line to some of this. So advocating is not optional. I’d say it’s essential.

Nicky Lowe [00:37:33]:
I love that because you’re really normalizing it. Because I think my experience was that I thought I was doing something wrong because I was finding it so hard and just going to go actually normalizing it. No, this is hard. You’re not doing anything wrong, actually. You just need more resourcing to be able to navigate a really, as you say, monumental transition. And so asking for the support you need is strategic, isn’t it? It’s not selfish at all. So finally I know people are going to want to read the report and learn out more about you. So where would you direct them to? How can they get hold of the report and where can they find out more about you and what you do?

Clare Radford [00:38:09]:
Yes. So have a look on the website. The link will be shared as part the of this podcast and you can download the report there. I’m also on LinkedIn. Claire Radford UK and what I would say just a plea to anyone that is listening. This research was entirely self funded for all the reasons stated at the beginning. So if you can engage with the report, share it on social media, send it to your friends and colleagues in business and HR and just try and spread this message as widely as you as you can.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:40]:
Love that you’re advocating for yourself there, Claire. You’re role modeling. Love it. And so your organization is called and Consulting, isn’t it?

Clare Radford [00:38:47]:
And Culture Consulting.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:49]:
And Culture Consulting. Sorry, getting it wrong. It gives us. Say it again because I want to make sure people I’ve not messed that up for you.

Clare Radford [00:38:57]:
So yeah, so my company is and Culture Consulting. We work with businesses on a wide range of challenges around aligning your culture with what your people need. And it’s all grounded in psychology. And as you’ve said already today, I like to work in a really evidence based way. So whilst culture can seem this, you know, quite nebulous idea, what is culture? Actually what we’re talking about is making working lives better. And surely that’s a good thing for everyone.

Nicky Lowe [00:39:27]:
Brilliant. Well, thank you for the work that you’re putting into the world and thank you for being such an important part, part of my kind of inner circle as well.

Clare Radford [00:39:34]:
Thank you, Nicky. It was so nice to do this with you.

Nicky Lowe [00:39:37]:
I know. Thanks, Claire. If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Wisdom for Working Mums, I’d love for you to share it on social media or with the amazing women in your life. I’d also love to connect with you. So head over to luminate.co.uk where you’ll find ways to stay in touch. And if this episode resonated with you, one of the best ways to support the show is by subscribing and leaving a review on itunes. Your review helps other women discover this resource, so together we can lift each other up as we rise. Thanks for listening.

Nicky Lowe [00:40:13]:
Until next time. Take care.