Nicky Lowe [00:00:07]:

Hi. I’m Nikki Lowe, and welcome Hi. I’m Nikki Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom For Working Mums podcast show, where I share insights and interviews that support women to combine their family, work, and life in a more successful and sustainable way. Ever been told by others that you appear to have it so together on the outside, but your experience feels very different on the inside. I know I have, and I know it’s an experience that so many of my clients have too. They appear to have their shizzle together. They have a great career and perform well in their job. They’re a loving parent.

Nicky Lowe [00:00:43]:

They maintain a great relationship with a partner if they have one. They’re a great friend, sister, daughter. They’re in control of their life admin, and their Google Calendar is a work of art. But underneath it all their experience is a little different. They experience their everyday of worry and stress. How much of this is normal? When does it turn from normal everyday stress and worry into anxiety? And how would we know if we were someone who has high functioning anxiety? I’m going to be discussing this and so much more with my incredible guest today, doctor Jody Richardson. Doctor Jody is one of Australia’s leading lights to Managing Anxiety and Amplifying Well-being. She supports parents and teachers to understand anxiety, change their relationship with it, dial it right down, and light the way for their children and their students to do the same.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:40]:

Jodie is an international speaker, the sell best selling author of Anxious Kids and Anxious Mums. She’s a well-being science consultant, creator, and host of the Well Hello Anxiety podcast and a respected media commentator in well-being and parenting space, she’s academically accomplished, professionally experienced, and very honest and open about her own personal experience of anxiety, and her unique blend of professionalism and relatability is a breath of fresh air in the mental health world. And today, she’s going to be sharing her insights, experiences, and strategies for anxiety in a way that will leave you feeling empowered. So whether you’re a high achiever who needs these insights in your own life or simply someone who’s curious about this topic, stick around. Doctor Jodie is about to sprinkle some wisdom that’s not just gonna open your eyes, but also your heart. This is a conversation you won’t wanna miss as doctor Jody shares how we can all lead fulfilling lives even while Sling with Our Inner Anxieties, and I just loved this conversation. I love not only doctor Jodie’s voice because it’s just so calming and soothing, But her real life experience of somebody that’s been navigating anxiety personally in her own life for over 20 years, and what she shares, I think is so relatable. And we also dive down into the science.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:09]:

So we would geek about some of the science, which I absolutely love, but making it really relatable for us us working moms. I think you’re going to love Doctor Jodie as much as I do, and I won’t keep you any longer. Let’s introduce her. So, welcome Doctor Jodie. Thank you so much for joining me. Before we hit record, I said I cannot wait to dive into this conversation because I think it’s it’s going to be such a beautiful and really important one.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:03:34]:

It is. Thank you for having me Nikki. It’s just a pleasure to be with you.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:38]:

And and I also said thank you because we were talking about the time zone difference because you’re based out in Australia. And at the moment, it is kind of tea time. You’re juggling got the kids that are coming in and cooking dinner. So you recognise the juggler as a working mum.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:03:53]:

Oh, I sure do. I sure do. I just, I just said to Nikki that I’ll pop pop you on mute. I’ll just make sure that when my daughter turns on the oven, she does not put the taco shells in. They have to wait. Yes.

Nicky Lowe [00:04:06]:

Yes. Thank you. For those that don’t yet know about you and kind of the incredible work that you do, can you give an insight into who you are and really the journey you’ve gone on to do the work and very important work that you do now.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:04:20]:

Oh, I can. Oh, thank you, Nikki. Well, I am somebody who is very passionate about mental health and well-being, particularly anxiety. I had an undiagnosed anxiety disorder myself well for around 20 years and in, I guess, my recovery and healing on that journey, I learned a lot about myself, I learned a lot about anxiety and have done a lot of extra study and feel really passionate about sharing the strategies, the insights and the understanding that can make such a powerful difference to anybody who lives with anxiety, most of us I mean I have a disorder but most people have very normal anxiety that can get heightened at times, I really like for people to understand it, to know how to recognize it, to know what to do about it, and really importantly, to not let it stand in the way of them doing what matters. And, I also particularly love to support parents with their anxious kids and teens as well.

Nicky Lowe [00:05:19]:

So, yeah, I I think there’s going to be so much we’re going to cover today that’s going to resonate, with my audience and with me. So, yeah, I can’t wait to dive into it. So obviously, you’ve talked about anxiety and actually a diagnosed anxiety disorder. I think it might be useful just to give us a foundation about what are we talking about when we talk about an anxiety and what’s kind of normal through to what’s kind of more like a clinical diagnosis around this, would you mind kind of sharing some of the spectrum that might exist?

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:05:53]:

Yes, of course, of course. So anxiety is a normal human emotion and we know that anxiety is the brain and the body’s response in anticipation of a threat. And so we experience fear in the moment, so a really great way to think about it would be, and this happened to me when I was a kid, we have magpies, a black and white bird here in Australia. Do you have Pies, Nicky? We do. You do. Okay. So they swoop, they’re known for swooping, and I remember walking through a vacant block as a kid to go to the milk bar with 50¢ in my pocket, so that’ll give your listeners an indication of how old I am. And I got swooped by a magpie and it sort of, you know, brushed past my head and that I experienced fear in that moment, in that sort of clear and present danger as the movie title goes, but the next time I was on my way to the milk bar and I’m thinking about what could happen, that’s anxiety and I’m anticipating what could go wrong.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:06:55]:

And we know that when anxiety is we’re experiencing anxiety, it initiates the fight or flight response, so that’s our brain and body’s way of keeping us safe and that brings, really worrying thoughts, lots of what if questions, often a sense of dread, lots of physical symptoms in the body that all make sense in the context of the body being prepared to stay safe, we also can have a lot of big emotions and also it can affect the way we operate. So for some people, it’s perfectionism and it’s just working harder and really striving hard in high functioning anxiety, and for other people it’s complete avoidance and just not liking the feeling that comes up when anxiety shows and wanting to do anything that they possibly can to stop that feeling being a part of their life. So in terms of normal anxiety versus a disorder, generally speaking, most anxiety is really normal and a lot of it gets pathologised unnecessarily. It’s really normal human emotion. And so kids who are doing exams or starting something new or starting school or applying for their 1st job or asking somebody on a date, all of those things of course are going to bring up anxiety. It’s a problem when it’s getting in the way of daily life, when it’s really extreme and it’s frequent and it’s really stopping a young person or anybody doing the activities of daily life and the things that really matter to them.

Nicky Lowe [00:08:30]:

Brilliant. And that’s really useful to ages normalize it, and by the way, Doctor. Jody, you have the most beautiful calming voice. I’m like sitting here going, I could just listen to you. I I just want to sit back and kick off my interviewer shoes and just listen to it. The normalizing of that was just brilliant about actually it’s a really normal emotion and it serves a purpose, but it becomes an issue when it gets in the way of life. And I’m really curious to hear about your story because you talked about you had it undiagnosed. So what was that experience like for you of daily life.

Nicky Lowe [00:09:06]:

And at what point did you realize that it could be more of a disorder? And how did that come about? If you wouldn’t mind sharing that journey because I think that would be useful for us to hear.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:09:16]:

Yes, of course. Well, I can look back now and see that my first symptoms started when I was in prep, is our 1st year of school here in Australia after kindergarten, and I was in a class with 53 preps and a lot of little kids basically, a lot of little 4 5 year olds and 2 very stressed teachers and there was a lot of tension, a lot of yelling, and I that that I guess my brain detected that as a threat and initiated that fight or flight response and I one of my first symptoms was an upset tummy, and so that’s where it all began. And my mum I’d say to my mum, I feel sick. I don’t want to go to school. Nobody really understood what was happening and she was, like, well, I think you’re okay. There’s no fever. No. There’s no rash.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:10:03]:

There’s no vomiting. Off you go. So thankfully, she made me still go to school. But I had that sort of developed and progressed through. Primary school wasn’t really getting in the way too much, but it was just this constant worry. So I sought a lot of reassurance, lots of reassurances to asking mum,

Nicky Lowe [00:10:21]:

to

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:10:22]:

every 15, 20 minutes about a worry and she’d say she’d just reassure me that it was going to be okay. In high school, I started to play netball at a very high level and that high anxiety through, my expectation of performing well created a lot of breathing problems, that was another symptom that I noticed a lot was that I couldn’t get a full breath and, I just had this feeling like I can’t quite get the air I need and I ended up going to the GP and being diagnosed with asthma given a Ventolin, but of course that didn’t help because that wasn’t my problem. The anxiety continued right into at adulthood and I was teaching at the time I used to teach, and I actually would never have sought help. I never would have recognised that what I was experiencing was any different to most people, but the constant and chronic stress and anxiety and hyperarousal of my nervous system eventually led to major depressive disorder and that was when I went to the GP because I said to my doctor, I’ve got a job I love. I’ve got a partner who I’ve now married, we’ve been together 30 years. I’ve got a partner I love, great friends, sort of on the outside looking in, it everything kind of looked like my ducks were in a row, but I was sad all the time and I knew that that meant there wasn’t something quite right. So once I went to the GP and was diagnosed with depression, it was a long healing journey ahead from the depression and then started the work to understand myself and understand my anxiety and, a lot of pieces of the puzzle started falling into place.

Nicky Lowe [00:12:05]:

Thank you for sharing that because it’s, a, it’s joining the dots. And what I’m hearing there is actually it just became your normal and you assumed everybody was feeling and experiencing that until you had that moment that almost, I always call them the brick wall moments where we take stock and go, what is actually going on here? So I really appreciate you sharing that. For this particular episode, we’re talking about high functioning anxiety. I wondered if you could give an insight into what that might mean and how that might differ from kind of general anxiety.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:12:50]:

Yeah. Absolutely. So what what we understand about high functioning anxiety is that people who live and breathe with high functioning anxiety operate at a really high level. So they operate really well at work, really well at home, they’re often very high achievers, often called overachievers, maybe by those who know and love them, always striving, working hard, very high standards that they put on themselves. But despite the fact that they’re functioning well and and I I guess I have fallen into this category, although high functioning anxiety isn’t considered a formal diagnosis. However, it is a very real experience and people, I guess the difference is the anxiety doesn’t get in the way of the functioning and that’s a real clear distinction between anxiety that’s a disorder versus anxiety that still can be really challenging, but may not be diagnosable, and so the high standards that one sets for oneself are really hard to maintain and achieve and that creates a lot of chronic stress and that in turn brings with it anxiety that is accompanied by all of the physical sensations and all of the thoughts and the emotions and the behaviours. So there can be a lot of tension in the jaw, through the shoulders, through the muscles, there could be racing heart, there could be digestive issues because of the way that anxiety changes the way the blood flows through the gut. And so a person with high functioning anxiety is operating really well and on the outside, doing everything that they need to do to function at a very high level, but accompanying that with so many of the signs and symptoms that

Nicky Lowe [00:14:55]:

It made me think of my own experience and so many of the clients that I work with and that high standards piece. When I was little, and I’m trying to think what age I would have been, maybe about 7. I go by the name Nicky, but my full name’s Nicola, and I remember one of my aunts used to say to me, Nicola, Nicola, ever so particular, because it was almost like I had these high standards that I would hold myself to probably from a very young age. I mentioned before we hit record that one of my fascinations in this area is when I had my own burnout journey 10 years ago now and unpicking actually how did that happen? What were the underlying causes, both individual and systemic, so society and all the pressures that working moms get put under, and recognizing that my burnout was adrenal fatigue, so I’d burnt my adrenal system out and that kind of, I think the high functioning anxiety was just my norm. I was just living in that hyper alert state and not recognizing it, just as you were saying from your own experience, so you’ve talked there about some of the common signs and symptoms around kind of perhaps gut issues, perhaps, Racing Heart. And I thought that your breathing experience about actually getting diagnosed with asthma is really interesting doing because there might be people listening that can relate to that, what might be some of the other common signs and symptoms that, you might see as, I suppose, a practitioner that other people might live with and just not even recognize or just assume that that’s some other physiological symptom?

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:16:42]:

It’s such an important question because when we think of anxiety, we think of the psychological side of it often, and and we and often, well, what can be overlooked is the the way that it affects us physically. And so essentially, a great way to think about it is that our brains have an alarm and when that alarm is ringing, then the brain has detected a threat, and that could simply be too many emails in the inbox all us as moms going, I’m I’m working and the kids need to pick up and how am I gonna juggle all this? How am I gonna whom am I gonna call on? What am I gonna do? How am I gonna how am I going to make this work. So when the brain detects a threat, it puts our whole nervous system into the fight or flight Sympathetic Response, and so we are powered up physically to be able to fight a threat or flee because the brain actually doesn’t know the difference between having, too many competing priorities and and struggling to take off the work hat when we’re putting on the parent hat and genuinely facing a danger like being followed to our car when we’re on their way to an underground car park. So we respond in the same way. So the the types of things to to look out for aside from the worry and the catastrophic thinking and that those types of thinking changes are the physical side of things. It’s often that they’re the first symptoms we often notice too when we’re recognising that we’re feeling this way. So if we think about the hearts racing to bring more oxygenated blood to our muscles so that we can fight or flee, breathing changes because when we’re developing, we’re stressed and anxious, we start to breathe quite short and shallow and so our carbon dioxide and oxygen becomes quite imbalanced and we need more oxygen because that’s what really helps our muscles to contract and it’s going to help us run away quite quickly. So heart rate and breathing, perspiration is another one, sweaty palms or sweaty anywhere because the brain is predicting we’re going to fight or run really fast and so we’re gonna get hot, so therefore, the cooling turns on and that’s why we perspire.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:19:00]:

We get a lot of muscle tension for a number of reasons. Preparedness to defend ourselves, also because if we’re tense when we get a wound, we might be less likely to be as badly injured. We have dilated pupils and we get really laser focused, so our vision can change. So some listeners may sort of feel like their vision can get a little bit blurry or maybe some spotty vision. We get really laser focused on the threat. It can be headaches from the muscle tension and dizziness. With the gut, there can be this sick feeling, this nausea, or this feeling like you’re going to be sick and some people can even get so anxious that they will vomit because blood moves from the gut to our arms and legs so we can fight or flee. There can be numbness and tingling as well.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:19:53]:

And, yes, it can be a frequent or sort of urgent need to go to the toilet. So, yeah, these are, you know, trembling in the hands, these are just some of the signs and symptoms that can can show up. And usually, people will have certain signs and symptoms, I go, yes, I get the breathing thing. I get really sweaty and perspire, and my jaw clenches and I can sense that tension in my body. Other people will just feel like crying and bursting into tears, so it can vary.

Nicky Lowe [00:20:26]:

They’re brilliant to hear those potential physical symptoms because, again, I’m sure people listening will kind of go, Yeah, I can relate to that, I can relate to that, we’re not here to say, Oh, actually, you’ve got an anxiety disorder, but just paying attention to some of the stuff that we we can often be disconnected from our bodies during the day that there’s this whole wealth of information going on that’s given us insights into our day to day experience. And I’m also wondering about you talked there about the the emotional side. What might be some of the emotions that we will feel when we’re anxious? Because we talk about anxiety as if it is a an, an emotion in itself, but what what might be kind of the spectrum term of emotions people might feel when they’re feeling anxious?

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:21:10]:

Yeah, definitely. Because the part of the brain that detects threat is quite close to our emotional it’s really part of the emotional regulation centre of the brain, and so we can have big emotions like feeling a bit teary the other day. I say the other day, that’s a habit I’ve got up for my husband. The other day for my husband can mean yesterday, last week, last month, or last year, so so it was probably a couple of months ago, I was walking through our supermarket, a local supermarket, because I needed some breakfast cereal for 1 of the kids, and I felt this overwhelm overwhelming feeling of, sadness, and I just felt like I I can literally actually start crying, and I I’m in tune enough with myself to go, oh, I’m actually really anxious, so I felt this I felt very teary and I used a a strategy then and there to sort of make sure I could get the shopping I needed and then, you know, get out of there, but I did what I needed to do. Other people might feel really irritated or even angry and aggressive because when we feel anxious, the brain’s detected a threat and we wanna, you know, instinctively, we wanna fight or run, fight or flee. And so the fight side of things can can bring up anger and those sort of big, heavy emotions that can be a little bit hard to know what to do with as well. So yeah. And, certainly, that those feelings of jittery, you know, feeling jittery, feeling nervous, feeling this sense of anticipation or feeling a sense of dread, they’re the sorts of feelings that can go hand in hand when anxiety’s showing up.

Nicky Lowe [00:22:50]:

Brilliant. And I really appreciate you saying that because one of the I’ve learned about myself over the years is my anxiety can present itself as that anger irritability. It’s almost like, I become scary when I am scared, it took me a while to join the dots. I’d be like, god, why am I you know, I never used to be so angry. Like, where’s this anger? Because I I wouldn’t associate myself as kind of an angry, impatient person at all. It took me a while to go, Okay. No, this actually isn’t that. There’s something else sitting underneath it.

Nicky Lowe [00:23:26]:

I love you’re awareness in the moment where you could go, ‘Are these tears?’ it’s not actually sadness. It’s anxiety and being able to acknowledge that in the moment and and the self awareness to see what sits beneath it.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:23:40]:

It it does help and it it takes time for us to sort of sit with ourselves do to learn and reflect. And, one of the things that I I’ll just add, Nikki, is that as mothers, sometimes what can happen is some something can be happening with our kids or our partner, often our kids, where they they are sick or they’ve got a little lump or they’ve got a wound or they’re they’re got something, you know, some sort of chronic ailment. And the fear that we can feel because we’re worried can sort of come out as anger, which can be a little bit hard for us to sort of understand in the moment. You know, our kids have fallen over all, they’ve told us that they’ve got a headache, you know, that they’ve been having frequently. And because you’re so worried and you have this sense of fear, sometimes we can feel sort of angry and and and it could be a little bit confusing for us and the kids, and so I think just taking the time to sit with ourselves and to reflect and learn about how we respond and how we feel when things happen can really go a long way to us being able to better regulate and being able to explain to our loved ones what’s happening.

Nicky Lowe [00:24:54]:

Yeah. And I I can relate to that again. I I Remember a time when one of my children fell over and my initial reaction was to shout, this is why I tell you not to run. And I’m like, oh my goodness. Like, where did that come from? Where was the compassion for them in that moment? But as you say, reflection going, that was my anxiety about, oh my god, this looks this looks bad. Is this a trip to the hospital? And, oh my god, they’re really hurting. And, oh, I should have done better to prevent this. And actually, it was that that fueled the anger, not the anger at them.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:25:24]:

That’s right. That’s exactly right. But sometimes these things happen just in a microsecond. And, yes, so the the more we are aware of those responses, the more we can we can see them coming, I suppose.

Nicky Lowe [00:25:39]:

Yeah. Or

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:25:40]:

do something about it.

Nicky Lowe [00:25:41]:

You talked about that supermarket experience, about Lee, being able to regulate yourself enough in the moment. And I imagine over your experience of, of anxiety in doing the work that you do, that you’ve developed some real expertise in the coping strategies. So Yes. I know you talk about if they are feeling anxiety at some point.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:26:12]:

Yes, definitely. So because anxiety shows up around what we care about I think, you know, for for working moms, we care very much about our families, we care very much about our work. And if I use work as an example, let’s say, for example, there’s a promotion a a promotional, you know, opportunity that you’d like to apply for, but it creates a lot of anxiety. So, instinctively, the brain will say don’t put your hand up for that because putting your hand up, even thinking about it can trigger that fight or flight response because the brain will detect that as a threat, there is a risk there. There’s a risk of rejection. There’s a risk of, not being able to answer questions under, you know, under the the circumstances of an interview, and and that’s a challenge. And so so often what happens with anxiety and a lot of moms might listening might think about their own kids who didn’t wanna go to school or don’t wanna join the new basketball team or don’t wanna do something that’s a bit tricky because of the feelings it brings up, and yet what I love about, I guess, the work I do is I help people think about their relationship with anxiety. And I, as you would know, I have my own podcast which is called, well, hello anxiety, and the whole idea is that we can see it for what it is, a very protective brain, sometimes a little bit overprotective, we can say, well, hello.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:27:42]:

Here you are, old friend. Looks like we’re gonna do this together. We can look to use a strategy to settle that nervous system response down and reduce that arousal level so that we can then move forward and do what’s really important, even if a little bit of residual anxiety needs to come with us. So that’s kind of what I mean. It can be a stop sign. So many people feel anxiety and then don’t do what’s important because the feelings are, too uncomfortable, but you can feel it and you can actually still move forward. It’s not gonna stop your arms and legs from moving. It’s but it is something that we need to be able to sort of dial back so that we can think properly and do what we need to do.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:28:29]:

So in terms of dialling it down because sorry. One other thing I’d like to add is that some people will say, how do I get rid of it? And the thing is it’s actually really protective. We need it and so we we actually need it, but we can’t get rid of it even if we wanted to. And so I talk about dialling it back down. And so generally speaking, a really great message to remember, something that I think is quite memorable, is this idea of we need to get out of our head and into our body. And so in doing that, we use our body to settle our nervous system. And so we can use our breath, and this won’t be new. I I suggest for listeners the idea that our breath is a very powerful way to be able to settle our nervous system, but I wonder if listeners perhaps haven’t learned that the one very powerful change to that is to lengthen your exhale.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:29:32]:

So stretching that out and just breathing fairly naturally, not forcing it, but just letting that exhale lengthen, that’s a bit of a tongue twister, will help to show the part of our brain that has detected threat that we’re safe. Another aspect of dialling anxiety down or getting out of our head and into our body is movement. So one way to reduce this level of arousal in our nervous system is to just shake our arms and now I’m doing it while we’re speaking naturally, shake our hands and our arms and sort of shake it out. And it’s it’s a way of using up a lot of what the body has delivered for us to be able to fight or flee, we need to move to fight or to flee. But if we’re feeling anxious and we’re sitting at a desk or we are working in the canteen at school or we are lying in bed trying to go to sleep, then we’ve got everything in our body this mobilising energy that we need to do something with, and that’s why movement is so powerful. And a third sort of way to think about getting out of our head and into our body is using our senses. So closing your eyes and paying attention to everything that you can hear is bringing our attention from our worry, what we’re thinking about that might have triggered our anxiety, getting us out of our head into our body and enabling that anxiety to settle down, enough for us to then go, right, what do I need to do next for us to be able to move forward.

Nicky Lowe [00:31:03]:

Brilliant. They are so practical as well. You know, you were talking about the breathing and I’d read or heard that, somewhere before, about actually if your your exhale is longer it signals to your brain that you’re safe. And I to Mymet is one that I will employ particularly. I notice when I’m driving, my mind can anticipate all the things I’ve got to do before the end of the day or over the end of the week. I’ve got to get all this done. And I can literally feel my nervous system kick off. It’s something I consciously do to go, Just breathe out longer than you breathe in.

Nicky Lowe [00:31:40]:

Just tell your body you are safe right now, and so I love that and it’s so accessible. And also you, you know, you talked about that movement, about shaking it off. It made made me think of, Taylor Swift to Shake It Off.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:31:54]:

Yes. Animals

Nicky Lowe [00:31:57]:

in the wild do it, don’t they? If they’ve been chased by a cheetah, they will literally, if they find themselves they’ve been injured will go off into the bush and shake off excess stress hormones out of their system.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:32:10]:

Yeah, that’s it. It’s it’s about, sort of, I guess, discharging all of that extra energy because of everything. I mean, it’s quite phenomenal. It’s quite extraordinary what happens, this survival kind of mechanism that switches on and prepares us to stay safe. And we we would want for that to be the case if we were being followed and we needed to run or if we were going for a bushwalk and we realized that there was a a dog that we know isn’t a very friendly one on the wrong side of the fence and we need to be able to, you know, use all of those changes to our advantage to stay safe. But so often, this system switches on and it’s it’s not necessary. We’re not actually in danger, but our our brain needs to learn that we’re okay and we can use that strategy of get out of your head and into your body to sort of show our show our brain we’re okay. There’s no need for this, arousal level to stay so high and we can settle it back down.

Nicky Lowe [00:33:07]:

It got me thinking that actually a big part of my burnout recovery was body based, so not only kind of doing gentle movement of yoga walking, you know, just to, to regulate my body, but also, touch therapists are one of the things that has stayed with me ever since, and I have it monthly, is reflexology because, literally the act of somebody massaging my feet and then I’ve got an amazing woman called Jo who comes to my house to do it, literally triggers my parasympathetic response so it drops me into that soothing system more than I could ever do with my head alone. It has to be a physical act for me that gets me into my parasympathetic in that way.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:33:55]:

Yes. Yes. I love that you’ve raised that because touch and massage and and even connection with other people. So it’s it’s the it’s the the perfect trio. You’ve got somebody you trust he comes to your home, you’ve got that co regulation from somebody who’s sharing their car with you, so you’ve got that connection and you’ve got the, not only the reflexology, but just the touch and the massage as well, which can all, like you say, can activate our parasympathetic nervous system and bring us back into the green zone, which is the sort of the zone of our of our nervous system that where we’re more regulated and, and we like to be there. But other aspects of our nervous system activation are all appropriate in context, I think about my chronic anxiety for 20 years undiagnosed. Ultimately, I went into what’s called dorsal vagal, which is the parasympathetic nervous system actually conserving energy and kind of shutting things down and that was depression for me, which was protective because I couldn’t have survived as a as an organism, so to speak, in under the under the chronic stress that I’d been under with undiagnosed anxiety for so long. So every state of our nervous system has a role.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:35:16]:

There’s no good or bad. We like to be in the green zone, but, the other ones are adaptive depending on the circumstances.

Nicky Lowe [00:35:25]:

Yeah. And I think for most of my listeners, we’re probably bouncing between our drive system of getting stuff done and getting the, dopamine hit of getting through our to do list or our our our kind of flight, fight system, so we we bounce between our drive and our threat system and dropping down into that soothing system is really important. Now, I’m really intrigued by what you said about the dorsal vagal. Was that?

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:35:56]:

Yes. Yes.

Nicky Lowe [00:35:59]:

I love to to to geek out on this stuff. So I’ve heard of the polyvagal nerve, so the dorsal vagal. Would you mind just explaining what that is?

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:36:08]:

Oh, yes. So you’re you’re, you’re at I guess you’re generally asking about the vagus nerve. And the vagus nerve is a nerve that travels, or 10th cranial nerve that travels from our brainstem down through past our face, our sorry. Our ears, our face, our heart, our lungs, other organs on the way down to our gut, and it’s really what so the the vagus nerve is really what supports our nervous system to move between different states. And so the ventral vagal, which is the green zone. So if you think of traffic lights, so if I ask listeners to think of kind of the green light on the bottom, the amber light in the middle and then the red light at the top. So ventral vagal, in terms of the polyvagal, poly meaning many, polyvagal theory, ventral vagal is the green zone. And so that’s our rest and digest, that’s where we we can engage with other people, we can connect, and it’s so fascinating because the vagus nerve connects in, at our ears.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:37:17]:

And so when we are in the green zone, we can hear conversations. So if you’re at a very loud party you’re in the green zone, you’ll be able to tune in to the voice and to that tone and of the person that you’re listening to. When we go into fight or flight, which is amber, so that’s when our fight or flight, that’s our sympathetic nervous system, the the the way the vagus nerve changes, our hearing is so that we can hear more predatory sounds. And so if you’re in fight or flight, you won’t be able to hear the same way you can if you’re in a more grounded nervous system state, so it’s so interesting. And you know when you’re really anxious and your voice goes in quite a high pitch and you feel that knot in your throat and you have that tension in your jaw, so when we are in fight or flight, we’re in that amber zone, then the vagus nerve is, activating us in a way that changes the way that we speak. And so when somebody’s in the green zone, their voice is there’s prosody, there’s sort of highs and lows, there’s a calmness to it. So I guess what what you said at the start, which is a beautiful compliment, is that I feel I mean, the green I’m probably in a nice blend of green and amber at the moment because I’m alert and activated, concentrating, I’m not falling asleep, which, you know so I’ve got that nice blend. Yeah.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:38:51]:

And so it can change so much about us. So if we think about ventral vagal being the green, rest and digest, Amber being fight or flight, that’s the sympathetic nervous system, and then the the red is the dorsal vagal, so that’s the other, state, related to the vagus nerve and related to the nervous system, and that’s that’s shutdown, that’s freeze, that’s numbing, that’s dissociation. That was depression for me, which built up over time. But for other people listening, they might you might find on a Monday morning, you might wake up and you might feel really flat, just disconnected. You’ve lost touch with that sense of purpose about your work, you just sort of feel numb, all you want to do is pull the douna back over your head and not face the world. And so sometimes we can have that sort of shutdown experience, that dorsal vagal state, which is really energy conserving even just in a day. We might then start our morning routine and start to get some movement, some activation in our system, and then we might be able to regulate our nervous system and bring ourselves back into ventral vagal, which is green. So it’s, it’s quite fascinating.

Nicky Lowe [00:40:07]:

It is hugely fascinating. So, there’s a couple of things that really came to my mind when you were saying that. The first was around almost this assumption that if we’re anxious we’re in that hyperarousal, you know, we’re tapping our foot, or we’re, quite, could be almost quite manic, but I think it’s really important to say, it can drop out the bottom, can’t it, as being hypoarous or as you say, a flat and unable, and that that can be on the same spectrum, but we may not. I think it’s so important for people to hear that, that actually your response of being in that chronic anxiety for so long was that? And so I really appreciate you sharing it. The other thing that it was making me think, and I could have cried actually when you said it, Doctor. Jodie, was about the ears and about our hearing. Because one of the things that I find that if I’ve had a particularly challenging day and I suppose my anxiety levels are up. If the kids come in and they start talking to me at the same time and the TV is on as well, I almost I’m like, it is like somebody putting their fingers down a blackboard.

Nicky Lowe [00:41:16]:

It’s like I am way overstimulated here and I cannot cope. And I just thought it’s interesting because I was like, is this perimenopause? Is this a symptom of perimenopause? That that makes absolute sense to me now hearing the are almost like the science behind it.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:41:32]:

It is something that I relate to as well, Nikki. I find that it’s this sensory threshold. And I remember learning, I spoke to somebody on my podcast about the sensory threshold because, we and and what I thought was it was related more to people who were autistic, that the sensory threshold’s sort of more it’s sort of more, language that’s used around, people with autism so that they can have those sensory needs met, and and what I learned was that we all have these thresholds and and like you, I have a relatively low threshold for too much noise and and I I can feel it, and we we, we have a of an evening, my family and I, we all the 4 of us, we get together and my kids are 13 and 15. And it’s so funny, Nicky, because we bought a new couch for our family room, and the old couch wasn’t as big as the new couch. And just having a new couch that’s big enough to fit the 4 of us has brought us all together in the most beautiful way at night. And we all watch The Rookie on Netflix or Channel 7 or whatever. Anyway, the reason I’m I’m saying this is because at night, I’m, like to all the other mums. We we need some wind down time.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:42:55]:

And watching television, watching an hour or so of television at night is really relaxing for me. I love it. And so when we’re all sitting watching and the telly’s on, sometimes the dryer might be on because we’ve got one of those sort of European laundries that’s just behind us, and if one of the kids starts talking, I can feel my nervous system responding and I have to I don’t want to kind of, like, ruined the vibe. Yeah. But I I just have to sort of quietly say, could somebody please pause the television? And sometimes in my head it sounds really sweet, and in reality it doesn’t. But, yes, so I think knowing our thresholds and just knowing what we need is, and conveying that to our family, is quite important. So I hear you. I get it.

Nicky Lowe [00:43:44]:

Thank you for sharing that because again, it normalizes it. It’s interesting because one of my last guests that I interviewed for a while, but one of the things she shared at the end of the podcast was that she’s recently been given a diagnosis of autism, and so it’s a very late diagnosis really of autism, and when she was talking about some of the symptoms, I was like, oh, right. Yeah. Because it that sensory overload piece. And I was like, oh, maybe. But hearing you go, actually, it’s it’s normal. And in terms of the vagus nerve coming through the ears, if we’re on amber or getting towards red, I’m like, oh, okay. That makes absolute sense to me now.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:44:30]:

Yes, it really does and it’s so interesting and particularly around the way the the nerve connects to our communication system around our mouth and our jaw, and and so it it makes sense, and I think listeners could hopefully relate to that. We get quite nervous, we get quite squeaky and a bit high pitched, and and my work I’m a professional speaker. And so one of the things I know conveys trust and conveys calm and enables me to sort of co regulate with my audiences for me to think about my voice and how I come across. Because if we are feeling a bit, sort of, choked up, then we can it can really change how we come across and we know anxiety’s so contagious, so it’s, yeah, it’s really it’s really interesting.

Nicky Lowe [00:45:23]:

Oh gosh. There’s so much there’s so much we could talk about. So, obviously, we’ve talked about generally anxiety, we’ve talked about high functioning anxiety, we’ve talked about some of the common signs and symptoms, and some brilliant coping strategies. I suppose, what would your advice be to to my audience particularly that are balancing work and family life, and what kind of support or resources would you be suggesting somebody? If somebody can relate to what we’ve been talking about here. What would your advice be?

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:45:57]:

One of the things, I guess, my journey with my own with my own business as a working mum, there’s so much that I’ve learned. And I’ve got a great guest I’d love for you to interview, Nikki, that I’ll I’ll recommend for you, as well. But what I’ve I’ve learned a few different things. 1st and foremost, it’s really helpful if you can take your work hat off and put your parent hat on because when we’re trying to do both, We’re on our phone checking emails whilst also trying to listen to, you know, a bit of a rundown of the day, from one of the kids. Then nobody’s getting the best of us, and we just end up in this state of chronic stress, and so I think it’s really nice to be able to have that division. For those for working moms who work in the home, I think it’s nice to have a space that you can close off if it’s at all possible because that, again, gives you that sort of division. For working moms who are in a workplace and commute, whether that’s in the car or whether that’s on the train or on the tube, then we we talk about the 3rd space, and this is the work of the the lovely doctor Adam Fraser, who’s an Aussie, and he talks about this space between kind of one role and another role and just using that time wisely to reflect on the day. Maybe make some notes, some mental notes, or jot them down of things that you can pick up the next day.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:47:29]:

Reset by using your breathing or ground yourself, and then think about how you want to then move forward into the next space, which would be, you know, if you’re coming from work and how you want to connect with your family. And so I think that’s a really great way to sort of manage that juggle. And I think another thing I’d love to suggest, probably the the last one, there’s, you know, there’s so many, but this idea of coping out loud, which we can do as moms, and I do a lot with my kids who are obviously teenagers, but my teenagers understand my mental health. And what I’ve said in the past is if I’m feeling very stressed about something, there’s a few balls in the air that I can’t feel like I can put down, I might say to them, hey. I’ve got a few things on my mind at the moment and it’s causing me quite a bit of stress. So I might not be quite myself, I might not be quite as mindful and present, I might not be quite as relaxed and calm as you would normally hope that I would be, but it’s nothing to do with you. It’s it’s just what’s happening for me. It’ll all get sorted.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:48:36]:

I’m gonna just take a few breaths, and just that idea that you can let them in on the idea that, hey, this is not about you. This is not your this is not something you’ve caused, because I think kids can often feel responsible for how we feel. And if we can just own it, say it out loud, name it to tame it, it can help us feel better in itself, and it shows them that, hey, mum’s feeling stress, this is how she’s managing it and that’s sort of quite good role modelling as well.

Nicky Lowe [00:49:04]:

Absolutely. I think there’s so much power in that, isn’t there? Because you’re teaching your children self awareness and self management and relationship management in that, there are going to be times when we all feel too much pressure or overwhelmed and, yeah, coping out loud. I love that. As you say, just naming it tames it because you’re almost saying to your own system as well, Look, I I hear you, and, Hello there, anxiety, as you say. I’m, yeah, I’m I’m not I can’t get rid of you and we’re not meant to get rid of you, but I’m here going to navigate it in the most beautiful way that I possibly can knowing that it’s not gonna be perfect.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:49:43]:

Yes. That’s it. That’s it. And self compassion, I’m sure you’ve probably talked about that before, but self compassion is and, doctor Kirsten or Kristen, I think it’s Kristen there. Kristen, not Kirsten. Kristen. Just that self compassion is so calming for our system to be able to recognize just that, hey, this is hard. I’m going through a hard time.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:50:05]:

I’m not alone in what I’m trying to do as working moms. It’s really hard sometimes, and there are a lot of us, you know, doing the best we can and to treat ourselves with the kindness and compassion that we would treat a friend feeling the same way can really go a long way to sort of bringing us out from that amber back into that green as well.

Nicky Lowe [00:50:24]:

I think that ties so beautifully into the subject that we’ve been talking about today, about high functioning anxiety, because my experience is that high achievers tend to be really tough on themselves, so their inner voice isn’t one of compassion, which almost fuels the fire of they’re high functioning anxiety, so just to be able to go hand on heart, and I’m doing my best. This is not easy, But I am doing my best and kind of I’ve got you I’ve got you or myself mothering, isn’t it, as you do it?

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:50:55]:

That’s exactly right. And one one is this idea of naming that voice and giving that giving that voice a name and and almost to even naming the story. This is it’s called diffusion. And, so you it might be, oh, here comes the I’m not good enough story, or here comes, I’ve gotta just do this little bit extra and it’ll be okay story and just having a little bit of a sense of humor about it, not mocking ourselves, but just, here comes, oh, that old chestnut and just recognizing the stories that we we have on repeat in our heads because most of them are not helpful. And, you know, with high functioning anxiety, often there’s a lot of time, a disproportionate amount of time, spent on things that aren’t really important, And so asking ourselves, you know, why am I doing what I’m doing right now? Is this really the best use of my time? Can help to sometimes break that loop of just, you know, perfectionism and, self criticism so that we can, okay, tie a knot in that. I’m sending that email. That’s ready. That’s done.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:52:01]:

And and move on to the next thing. It’s a really lovely thing for us to be able to do for ourselves as well.

Nicky Lowe [00:52:06]:

Oh, no. That’s so reassuring. So if there’s just 1 thing and we’ve covered so many things Doctor Jodie, it’s been amazing but if there’s just 1 thing you want someone listening to this episode to take away, what would you want that to be?

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:52:20]:

I really want people to know that anxiety is very much a part of being human. It is a very normal part of life. It doesn’t have to be something that takes over. There’s a lot we can do to help ourselves, if you feel as though you are struggling and it is getting in the way, then reach out because it’s perfectly treatable and I’m a living example living and breathing example that there is a way to live and thrive even if anxiety has to come along with us, I like to say I’m in the driver’s seat and anxiety is in the boot.

Nicky Lowe [00:52:58]:

Love that. Love it. So I’m sure people are going to want to find out more about you and your work if they don’t already, so where would you point them towards? And I can put all the links in the show notes.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:53:08]:

Oh, thank you, Nikki. Yes. You’ll find me online, on Instagram, doctor Jodi Richardson, Jodi with an I. My podcast is Well, Hello Anxiety with doctor Jodie Richardson, and my website is doctorjodierichardson.com.au. So if you Google me, you will probably find a link that’ll take you where you need to go.

Nicky Lowe [00:53:27]:

Amazing. Thank you. I’ve loved this conversation, and I, yeah, just really grateful for the work that you’re doing in the world, so thank you.

Dr Jodi Richardson [00:53:35]:

Aw, Nicky. Thank you for having me. It’s been such a joy talking with you, and I love the work that you’re doing. You’re making such a difference for for working moms. So, yeah, I applaud you and and the wonderful work you’re doing

Nicky Lowe [00:53:51]:

for working mums. Please share it on social media and with your friends and family. I’d love to connect with you too. So if you head over to wisdom for mums.co.uk. You’ll find a link on how to do this. And if you love the show and really want to support it, please go to iTunes, write a review, and subscribe. You’ll be helping another working mum find this resource too. Thanks so much for listening.

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