Nicky Lowe [00:00:06]:
Hi. It’s Nicky Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom for Working Mums podcast show. I’m your host. And for nearly two decades now, I’ve been an executive coach and leadership development consultant. And on this show, I share evidence based insights from my coaching, leadership, and psychological expertise and inspiring interviews that help women like you to combine your work, life, and motherhood in a more successful and sustainable way. Join me and my special guests as we delve into leadership and lifestyle topics for women, empowering you to thrive 1 conversation at a time. I’m so happy that you’re here and let’s go on with today’s episode. Welcome back.

Nicky Lowe [00:00:47]:
It’s wonderful to have you here again, and if you’re a first time listener, a warm welcome. I’m so glad you’ve joined us. In this episode, I’m joined by Rebecca Fleming. Rebecca is a dynamic commercial director for a global consultancy and the lead of their parents and carers network. Rebecca is not only a trailblazer in a male dominated construction industry, but also a dedicated co parent to her 8 year old son, Max, navigating the challenges of an ASD and ADHD assessment journey. And today, Rebecca opens up about balancing a high powered career with a mental load of parenting, co parenting after divorce, and championing diversity in the workplace. Her inspiring journey offers us practical wisdom on how to break barriers and redefine success, So join us for a conversation that’s as empowering as it is insightful. I’ll keep you no longer.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:44]:
Let’s welcome Rebecca. So welcome, Rebecca. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast show today.

Rebecca Fleming [00:01:52]:
Thanks, Nikki. It’s so good to be here. I’m really happy to join you on this. So, yeah, ever since I met you and you shared with me that you’ve got this podcast, obviously, you’re keen to come and be 1 of your guests. So really happy to be here.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:04]:
So we met on a on a leadership program I was facilitating a little while ago, and we’ve stayed in contact. And I’ve always been impressed with the journey that you’ve been on as a kind of senior leader and a female in your industry.

Rebecca Fleming [00:02:29]:
Yeah. So, Rebecca Fleming. I work for a company called Arcadis Consulting UK. Most people confuse that with the old Arcadia that used to run Topshop and all the fashion brands, but it’s not. It’s a big global consultancy. 36000 people actually work for our consultancy across the world. So I joined there really two and a half years ago now, work as commercial director. So traditionally, quite a male dominated environment, construction, consultancy, a bit more diverse.

Rebecca Fleming [00:03:02]:
But previous to that, worked for main contractors in construction. So I’ve spent nearly twenty years now working in a QSE type environment as you would know it, you know, being counter by trade, and that’s what I qualified in.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:15]:
And it was this the path that you always wanted to go on when you kind of went into the world of work? You knew this was the direction?

Rebecca Fleming [00:03:23]:
No. So very randomly and very, very girly of me. So I’m very, very girly, and I’ve got this really sort of masculine job, I think. So it’s very strange that I’ve ended masculine job, I think. So it’s very strange that I’ve ended up here because I hated maths and hated science at school, and they were my weakest subjects. And I have actually ended up in a job that relies heavily on maths and science. I actually trained to do fine arts at college, textiles, and I have this vision and this aim that I wanted to be an interior designer. That was my goal, interior design.

Rebecca Fleming [00:03:56]:
From a young age, I was always creative, an eye for color, and that was always written on my report at school. A great eye for color. And that was it. I used to decorate my bedroom all the time, different colors, always repainting it, moving furniture around. I just loved it. I loved a trip to Ikea. And for me, that TV show changing rooms back in the was like the thing that I wanted to do. So everything that I did going up to sort of ’18, ’19, twenty was all around art, textiles, design.

Rebecca Fleming [00:04:27]:
And then I realized there’s no money probably in that for me where I live quite sort of rural area not city center living probably no market for it and then that’s kind of how I started to weave through the world of work and found myself doing what I do now, which is so random, really.

Nicky Lowe [00:04:47]:
Oh, I love hearing people’s background because, yeah, that’s a completely different path to how you’ve planned, and yet you’ve been a huge success in a field that you never intended to. So the as you mentioned, the construction industry is very male dominated, and I’m just curious as to what that experience has been like for you as a as a woman, and particularly as you’ve got more senior in that industry. Yeah. I’ve particularly as you’ve got more senior in that industry.

Rebecca Fleming [00:05:11]:
Yeah. I’ve got few positive experiences actually, which I don’t think is spoken about enough. So I’m actually gonna flip this narrative a little bit onto the positives around my career progression. And 1 of the things that I love to really shout loud about is how many male allies I’ve had throughout my whole career and how important they are to women in this industry. Well, to me personally, and again, everyone has their own personal views and their own journey, but my journey, I get quite emotional about it. Actually, I feel as though I’ve become who I have because of the support of some really amazing male leaders and mentors and allies, to be honest.

Nicky Lowe [00:05:51]:
Oh, I love that. As you say, that’s flipping the narrative because often people will get very different experience. And as you say, everybody’s experience is is unique and valid. So what do you think has contributed to you having such great positive male allies? Is that just been quite chance and coincidence, or have you done anything to make that happen?

Rebecca Fleming [00:06:10]:
It’s a really good question because, obviously, it can’t be coincidence. Well, it’s probably is coincidence because they’re just sheer quantum. I think I I alluded to that I’m 16% of leadership roles of a female in my current work. But you imagine twenty years ago, that 16%, I mean, we’ve got a target of 27, 20 8 percent, I think this year. But back in my 20 year 20 year old self, that probably would have been 5% if that. So it’s it’s just sort of had to be that I had a male leader because there weren’t any female leaders twenty years ago. Honestly, there weren’t. So I think that’s benefited me because I’ve just been very lucky that I’ve had a lot of of very nice and very good senior leaders that are male around me, and they haven’t been particularly negative towards me.

Nicky Lowe [00:07:03]:
It’s really good to hear and I think reassuring for people. So you have been very open and honest, the fact that you, are a single mom. And I remember when we first met, you were we were sharing kind of conversations about being a working mom, and you were sharing that actually often people don’t understand the experience of being a single parent and that whole co parenting journey. So can you share a little bit about the journey of your motherhood and at what point in your career and what that’s been like for you to navigate motherhood, but then actually being a single parent as well.

Rebecca Fleming [00:07:39]:
Yeah. I think this has been the toughest challenge of my career, to be quite honest with you, and I hate to admit it because I’m all about empowering women to have it all and having that success. And if I’m completely honest with you, it has been tough, really tough. At times, I felt as though I can’t have it all, and I’ve really sort of been stubborn and dug my heels in and thought, no. I have to be a role model here for others, and I have to try and prove that it is possible to have it all. I think along the way at times I’ve probably nearly broken myself to sort of prove that point. There have been career choices that I have made over the last twenty years that have not suited the dynamic of being a single mum who went through a divorce. There was a time actually where I chose to hide the fact that I was going through a divorce because I didn’t want it to make me look weak within the workplace.

Rebecca Fleming [00:08:31]:
I didn’t want them to think you can’t lead whilst you’re sort of having personal challenges and you can’t take on opportunities if you’re you’re struggling at home or you haven’t got that support network. And I think lesson learned and guidance to anyone else out there is the sooner you talk about it and share it and you’re open and transparent with others, more help and support you’ll get. I think for me, again, lesson learned, trying to juggle it all in silence was not a good idea. So I’ve grown and matured into the fact that I’m really open and I share a lot about my personal life now, and that’s the only way I can survive. So 1 of my tips and techniques is, as a single mom, the more I talk about my struggle, the more I talk about the juggle, the more I talk about it with everyone else, I normalize it, and I make it relatable for others who then come up to me and say, oh my goodness. I’m so glad that you said that because I was feeling the same, and I thought it was just me. But, again, that’s come with a bit of time and maturity. And who’s to say in the ten years’ time? I don’t look back and think, oh, actually, I’ve learned even more and I’ve developed even more.

Nicky Lowe [00:09:41]:
And that’s the beauty of life, isn’t it? You know, we we in hindsight, we would always do things differently, but I love that you’re sharing that because I think it is so important generally about actually what’s going on in our personal lives. We try and almost keep and compartmentalize, and it’s just not possible and actually can weaken our position if we do. That piece about stepping into your personal leadership and being really honest and open, actually, I imagine, educates people as well because I remember when we when we spoke, you said you’ve had really supportive bosses that have tried to put stuff in place to support you. But because they’ve got unconscious bias about what it is like to be a single parent, those kind of measures haven’t actually helped you at all. I remember you talking about flexible working, and you were like, actually, even with that, I can’t stop overnight, and I can’t you know, there’s different there’s different. Yeah. So I love that you’re being open. You’re normalizing it and actually in the process educating people, but also being a role model for being an authentic leader.

Rebecca Fleming [00:10:42]:
I think it’s worthwhile noting as well at this point that I’m not just a a single parent, but I’m also a single parent of a child who’s neurodiverse and who is going through a process of being assessed. And, I mean, we spotted it from when he was quite young and and I got divorced when Max was nearly 3. So he’s now 8. 5 years now, I’ve been, you know, solo parenting, still still working in the same career, still doing the same job, whilst trying to understand my child and his little nuances and and almost having this guilt thinking I’ve made him this way. I’ve carried a lot of guilt thinking because I’ve always chosen work over him, which I haven’t, but that’s the narrative that certain people like to say. He’s become sort of disrupted behaviorally because he’s craving my attention or he feels as though he didn’t get the enough of my time. And over time, we’ve realized it’s probably not that. It is that he has an underlying thing.

Rebecca Fleming [00:11:46]:
So I’m kind of navigating the challenges of his behavior as well as navigating the challenges of working full time and everything that comes with it.

Nicky Lowe [00:11:56]:
And thank you for sharing that. And because I think that is such a relatable story around if our children are struggling in any way or maybe not following a neurotypical pathway. Our natural reaction as parents, but I think particularly as mothers, is, oh, it’s something I’m doing or I’ve done something wrong. And that emotional load that you’ve been carrying, I imagine, that must have felt very heavy along with the juggle of being a working parent. So I really appreciate you sharing that. So where where are you in that process at the moment then with Vax?

Rebecca Fleming [00:12:36]:
So it’s a long long process and honestly I feel for anyone that’s starting this journey because it is a long long process and you have to be patient because the waiting lists are years long. You have to fight for it as well and you have to really really push to get the best for your child because if you don’t fight for them and you don’t push then you just won’t get anywhere along the way. We have decided now to go private for MAX because we are fed up awaiting. I mean, we still have to go through the typical NHS route because schools actually don’t recognize private assessments. They they need the NHS paperwork to be able to provide additional support or any tools that you need to guide you. So in Jan. 0, we’ll be having the assessment, two day assessment, and that involves taking two days out of work. You know, it’s time out of work again.

Rebecca Fleming [00:13:29]:
It’s disruption to to work, but, obviously, it’s worth it because Max is a priority. And, hopefully, we’ll start to get some tools and some tips, really, as an outcome from that as to where Max sits in terms of his diversity and how we can better manage him really, if that makes sense. I’m learning all the time and I’m having to educate myself. I can’t just be a % in work because I’m always sort of in this Headspace of trying to learn about my son along the way as well. Reading books and talking to his dad on the side and saying, how’s he been at yours today? Has he done this? Has he done that? Why has he done it for you and not me or the other way around? And so it’s not quite as straightforward as just dropping my child at the door as well and saying, right off the off the top, see you again in two days time. You have this constant comms that you need to have between each other as well around. It’s kind of like that mental load that we talked about. The, the added admin of it sounds like I see my child as a as a chore, but I don’t.

Rebecca Fleming [00:14:31]:
It’s added admin of checking in all the time as to what he’s been doing, what he’s been saying, how he’s been acting, analyzing it, trying to get to the bottom of what’s triggering it, what can we do different. So I’ll give an example of how this intertwines with work. If I have to change a pickup with Max because a work meeting’s run over, or I can’t do my set rotor days in the week with Max because I need to be in London for work. That causes Max so much dysregulation, so much personal disruption to his little mind. He cannot handle it. And he goes into meltdown. His behavior just flips. He then obviously shows that behavior to his dad because his dad’s the 1 that’s having to pick up the pieces for me not being there.

Rebecca Fleming [00:15:21]:
So then I not only get the guilt of Max being disrupted, but I then also get the added aggravation of the text messages and the phone calls and the grief from his dad who’s annoyed with me for causing Max to feel that way. So I just try and avoid as best I can to change the routine with with Max because of work, because the impact that it has is more than just losing a night with him. It’s actually physically affects him.

Nicky Lowe [00:15:55]:
Yeah. That’s a huge responsibility to carry, isn’t it? Because I imagine you want to be seen as willing and flexible at work, but equally, you know, that actually there’s some clear boundaries that just don’t work for you as a family and having to hold those. And I’m imagining that can often feel very much in conflict.

Rebecca Fleming [00:16:15]:
Hugely because I wanna progress in my career. And I I know that the company I work for currently support me immensely. And I’ve spoken so openly about all of this to everyone I work with. And I’ve had so so much support. And 1 of the reasons why I joined a consultancy was to kind of get a better work life balance and to be to have that consideration at the forefront of everyone’s mind. And I’ve had that a % have that backup. And I can be my true self at work because I can talk about this and they they don’t necessarily have to get it, but they try and do everything they can, obviously, within reason. Still got they’ve still got business to run.

Rebecca Fleming [00:16:56]:
I still got a job to do.

Nicky Lowe [00:16:58]:
Yeah. That’s so brilliant to hear, though, Rebecca. And and, you know, full credit to you for being open and sharing the journey so that you can try and get as much support as possible. So it sounds like that’s a key part for you is about that open communication and being really transparent. Have you got any other strategies or habits or approaches that have helped you navigate this as best as possible?

Rebecca Fleming [00:17:23]:
We have always had a strict rotor in place with Max from when he was young, and we’ve not really deviated from that because you then know where you are and you can plan your work around your commitments easier. If you have more of a fluid rotor when you get divorced or separate from each other and you sort of do it ad hoc, it can be even harder to then fit your work life together, if that makes sense. So I always know for me, the boundaries are Wednesdays are my day with my son. And for me, if I miss a Wednesday, it will be five days until I see my son again effectively. So I have him on a Sunday and Wednesday in a week for the Saturday afternoon. So if I miss that Wednesday, I’m potentially going Monday to Friday without seeing my son. So for me, having that really strict Wednesday boundary is so important. And if I didn’t have those set days and that set road to that we’ve always had, I don’t know how I would work to be honest, because it would just feel all manic and all over the place.

Rebecca Fleming [00:18:31]:
And I, I personally can’t work like that. I like structure and routine.

Nicky Lowe [00:18:36]:
And you can plan, as you say, and it gives max that certainty and consistency for him as well.

Rebecca Fleming [00:18:41]:
And it’s good for your business as well because then they start to learn every Wednesday, Bex, she sees Max. And I bring Max into calls as well sometimes, you know, kind of everyone in the team starts to learn who Max is and it’s like, oh, Max has just appeared. And I used to apologize if you see and feel really guilty if you just wanted in because he doesn’t understand social cues either. So, you know, when most neurotypical people think, oh, I better not walk in and stand in front of the computer screen. And there’s a video. And those are people, because mommy is working and that might be bad. He just doesn’t get that. And he was just wondering and he’ll start chatting away to me.

Rebecca Fleming [00:19:21]:
Like there’s no one else on the screen. And I’m having to say, oh, oh, oh, you know, Max, come on now. But now I sort of bring him into the chat and sort of, like, embrace him as being, sorry. I’m not gonna apologize that he’s here. He’s he’s here. You need to accept that he’s here and I’m not going to keep, you know, I was doing this, pushing him out of the screen and literally holding him away. So it’s about sort of, and everyone’s like, hi, Max. Now No.

Rebecca Fleming [00:19:50]:
And then you know its name, and he’s still part of the team.

Nicky Lowe [00:19:54]:
I love that. It reminds me of Elliot Ray, who talks about parenting out loud and how that is really important to parent out loud in the workplace because, again, it normalizes. We are humans. We have a life outside of work, and there’s not this clear delineation that you can separate the 2 and keep them apart. And I love that you’re kind of just going, well, Max is a big part of my life, and he will show up on screen, and I’m gonna welcome him when he does, not kind of make him feel bad or ashamed for coming into this environment and that other people are welcoming him as part of that as well. So at what point in this journey then did you decide to set up the parents and carers network? How old was Max, and where were you on your motherhood journey when you decided to do that?

Rebecca Fleming [00:20:43]:
So that’s going way back to when I first came up to work for maternity leave. So it’s worth noting that when I had Max, I was obviously still married at that point. Life was really stable for me. I I had that picture perfect life from the outside. You look at the detached house, you know, the big driveway, the nice cars, the lovely husband we’ve been together since we were kids. And everyone that looked on our lives were thinking, wow, you know, they’re just gonna be together forever. They’re great. They’ve got it all.

Rebecca Fleming [00:21:17]:
She’s got the great job. He’s got his own business and he’s, he flexed his job. So I could go back to work full time. And he was always supportive of my career. My whole life supported my whole career was always there for me. And he said, I’ve got Max. You go and throw yourself back in. And it was great, honestly, at best years of my life.

Rebecca Fleming [00:21:38]:
And I went back into my typical construction role out on-site, quite a long day, a lot of driving, five days a week, quite intense with a 11 old. He was at the time, still breastfeeding as well. And I walked into the office and I just thought, how am I gonna express breast milk? There’s no facilities here for that. They just looked at me like I was weird. They didn’t have a clue how to handle me. I don’t think they’d really had anyone come back from the pharmacy before at that point. And they put me in this, we used to call it the bunker and it was this freezing cold corner of the client’s office at the time we were in, we weren’t on-site at that point, we were in a client office and it had those Venetian blinds, those metal Venetian blinds, and, you know, some slats can sometimes get bent and broken and they’ve said, oh, you can close the blinds, but you could still see through the broken ones where it didn’t fully close. And, and I just didn’t feel comfortable pumping milk in that cold corner, like I was some dirty, you know, put her over there.

Rebecca Fleming [00:22:49]:
And it made me feel really awkward. And because I’m so far away from home, so far away from Max, I just couldn’t continue to to feed him. It just wasn’t working. Supply was going. Max was getting really affected by it because he just couldn’t get the milk when he needed it. So I kind of felt a little bit of greed, I think about that, that that was the first, I suppose, realization that work is getting in the way of me being a mom. And I wanted to talk about it and I wanted to share that feeling that I was having, and I didn’t know how to share it and get it out. And it just so happened to be that at that point, my career was on an all time high and I had the ear of the leadership in that business.

Rebecca Fleming [00:23:39]:
And I mentioned it to them how I was feeling. And they said to me, will you set a network up about this, you know, for working moms or something to share these feelings? Because you can’t be the only 1 that’s coming back from maternity leave. You can’t be the only 1 that’s having these emotions. And that’s how it started, really. That’s how the network came about. So Max was 1, so what’s seven years ago now? And that network is still a really successful network within that construction contract, main contract. And now to this day, I see on the LinkedIn all the time, what they’re up to, what they’re doing. And I feel so attached to it because I think that’s kind of what was my baby, really.

Rebecca Fleming [00:24:22]:
That was what my brainchild and that was my baby. And I’m seeing it flourish and continue to grow and be an amazing network for, and they’ve changed policy and everything now in that business, since I’ve left because of that network, they’ve, they’ve got the best paternity policy within that company of any main contractor now because of the work that they’ve done in promoted men getting more time with their kids. And because that’s another thing I want, didn’t want to make it about women either. I want to make it about voice for men. So I could see out on-site safety critical work was happening. And I thought, blimey, these dads must be knackered. They’ve probably been up all night with a screaming baby, and then they’ve got to get into, you know, a piece of machinery down in a mine or something, you know, deep excavations, really safety, critical work. And if they’re shattered, this is scary.

Rebecca Fleming [00:25:23]:
And where’s their voice. Where do they get to express how they feel after having a baby or the newborn? And they must have emotions going on, you know, and where do they get to come together and talk about it? So it wasn’t just about being a mom. It’s about being a parent for me, having responsibilities and how that made you feel, and I really wanted people to have a voice.

Nicky Lowe [00:25:45]:
I love that. I love how you’ve gone and and did it from the equal parenting perspective, and also that you’ve created a legacy. So even though you’re no longer at that company, you can see the impact and the ripple impact of what you started. And so how has that evolved into the organization you’re now part of? What what do you do as part of Acadis now?

Rebecca Fleming [00:26:05]:
So I mentioned previously about making some poor career choices along the way, and unfortunately for me, when I left that business that was really supportive of me and that let me set that network up, I moved to another business who didn’t really promote EDI and who weren’t that bothered really about networks or any employee recognition or anything like that. It just died. I didn’t do anything in that space for three years, which was really sad because I think I lost my mojo a little bit bit around pushing the agenda. And then when I got into Arcadis and realized it’s people first company, they want you to bring your true self to work. And I’ve shared about the reasons why I joined Arcadis was because I needed a better work life balance because it was becoming too much where I was before. It just really nearly nearly killed me. They said to me, set it up again. Bring it here.

Rebecca Fleming [00:26:59]:
No. Do it here. We want it here. And I, like, you know, when you you just get a bit of imposter syndrome and you think, oh, no. You know, people aren’t that interested, and it’s not gonna really work. And I think it was when we were six months in. We only set it up in Jan. 24, so we’re only a year in.

Rebecca Fleming [00:27:17]:
It was June 0 this year, and it was carers week. And we did a series of daily events for carers week. And I think we gained a 50 people in network in a week because they’d seen what we were sharing the materials that we were sharing. And I know it seems like a really small number when you think the 36000 in the company, but to go from nothing to that level of engagement for me, that’s 150 people that see a need for this network and see that they wanted something out of it. And when I started to dig into why they joined, I was absolutely flabbergasted at the the breadth of what this network can cover. And it’s, it’s so much and there’s so much more we can do. And it’s almost a full time role in itself and I’m really passionate about it. It’s just, it can really, really help so many people, not just parents.

Rebecca Fleming [00:28:12]:
And that’s why it’s parents and carers because there’s a huge caring angle to it as well that we need to cover.

Nicky Lowe [00:28:18]:
Yeah. I love that. So you mentioned earlier that you’re only 1 of, I think it was about 16.4% of, senior female leaders in your in your industry. So what have you been doing? Because I know that, as you said, you’re such an advocate for women and parents. What are some of the things that you’ve put in place to help others around diversity and inclusion at senior levels?

Rebecca Fleming [00:28:46]:
As I’ve said before, I see myself as a role model, And and with that comes a lot of responsibility to give back. And I think as I’ve realized as I’ve matured and grown through my career and I’ve still got much more to do, but, obviously, twenty years in, I need to be the person that I had, if that makes sense. So I, I kind of put a bit of a physical point to this. I said about my male allies when I first started in the industry. And I remember being handed a scale ruler by 1 of my first ever male leaders in his office. And he said to me, I want you to have this. This is my scale ruler that I had when I was training to EQS. And it’s in here a nice little package.

Rebecca Fleming [00:29:29]:
It’s like the solid metal 1, really lovely, you know, bit of equipment. And I haven’t got a clue what it was, but he was literally like handing the bathroom to me. And I always see it as being like handing the bathroom to me. I’ve still got that star ruler to this day. It’s in a box, and I just every time I look at it, I could cry because I think of that as being the time the moment someone believed in me, the moment that someone saw potential in me and wanted me to succeed. And I feel like I have to be that person to someone else to get them through their career to help lift them up. And I’m a real strong believer in lifting others, not just women, everyone around me. So I’m a regional leader within my current business.

Rebecca Fleming [00:30:17]:
I want to be approachable. I want to be vulnerable. I want them to understand that they can relate to me, that I’m normal, that I have feelings and emotions too, and I want them to say that I’m there for them and I want them to succeed. I’m not the sort of leader that, oh, I want the best for me and all you lot can get back down in your place. I want to uplift and give them the opportunity that I’ve been given.

Nicky Lowe [00:30:44]:
Oh, what a powerful story, as you say, being handed that ruler, and it almost it was the handing the metaphor of handing over the baton and that you have taken that on and really utilized that well and almost paying it forward and lifting others as you’re rising. I think that’s so beautiful. So what would your advice be? I suppose my audience are working moms, and I know this is about working parents and beyond, but specifically for working moms about aspiring into these leadership roles, particularly if they might not have your typical, you know, family setup or they might not have that neurotypical child. What would be some of your nuggets of wisdom that you’ve gained at this point in your journey?

Rebecca Fleming [00:31:31]:
It’s really easy to say, isn’t it, not to feel guilty? And everyone says it, you know, remove the mum guilt because it really doesn’t help you at all. I think the sooner you can start to, like, own it and be confident in your circumstances and your situation and really believe in yourself, the best situation that you’re going to have at work and at home, because I found myself at times getting so bogged down with guilt and emotions of pressure that I put I’ve actually put on myself. I don’t think businesses do put that pressure on people. I think we put that pressure on ourselves. The sooner you can relieve yourself with that pressure, the easier it’s going to be.

Nicky Lowe [00:32:14]:
I think that’s really important what you’ve said about guilt because as you say, it is so relatable. It’s almost like the water we swim in as parents, but I think the mother’s guilt is on a different level. And being able to figure out what’s functional guilt, so what’s the guilt that says, no, I’m not willing to give up my Wednesdays with Max because that would just make me feel too guilty, is a functional of, like, protecting my boundaries versus the dysfunctional guilt of, like, we’re never enough. No matter how much we do, no matter what we do, it’s always never enough or not good enough or failing. And I love that you’ve really clearly said when you can get control of that, it empowers you to make decisions that are right for you, your work, and your family.

Rebecca Fleming [00:32:57]:
I think it’s also really important to get those allies around you, whether they’re male allies or they’re female allies. But 1 of the things that happened to me when I was much earlier in my motherhood was when Max was very, very little, I felt awkward, standing up. This is pre COVID, by the way. So when you did more stuff out on-site, you did more things face to face. And I’d have to think, oh, I’ve got to get back to Worcestershire. And I was in Warwick, for example. So a good hour and a half drive in brush hour to get back to the nursery, to get my son. And I think I was itching thinking I need to go, I need to go.

Rebecca Fleming [00:33:31]:
And I was, I didn’t want to be the first one to stand up and walk out. And it was a full on meeting. And quite often, I’ll be in a room, and there’ll be 20 men and there’ll be me. That is that is still quite a regular thing as well even to this day, even more so then. And I said to 1 of my male at the time, this is how it’s making me feel, but I don’t wanna have to stand up and disrupt the meeting by leaving. And he said to me, I’ll get up and walk out with you. We’ll go out together. And that was so powerful for me, and, you know, I still adore him to this day.

Rebecca Fleming [00:34:04]:
He’s such a great leader. He said to me, we stand up together and walk out together. If that makes you feel less awkward about having to get up and be the disruptor, we’ll disrupt it together. I’ll walk out the room with you. You can get off on your way and I’ll come back in. And things like just being open and having that ally or that friendship with someone that understood. Yeah. That was so powerful.

Rebecca Fleming [00:34:27]:
So I really, really would recommend that you have someone like that as well.

Nicky Lowe [00:34:31]:
So emotional hearing that somebody would go to that degree, and that’s what we all need at 1, isn’t it, that says I’m going to stand with you and we’ll do this together and I’ve got your back. I mean, that is just incredible. Huge kudos to whoever that is. Like, those are the kind of male allies that are just phenomenal. So I’m wondering amongst all of this, how do you look after your well-being? Like, how do you keep yourself sane, Rebecca? Because you are holding so much. What have you learned along the way that is almost like your safeguard to make sure you’re keeping yourself well and can thrive amongst all of this?

Rebecca Fleming [00:35:11]:
I think there was a time where I didn’t, and that was a huge, huge lesson for me. I was sick all the time. I was constantly getting ill, and I think my body was telling me enough. You know, it’s just too much. But I think that was the point that I realized something needed to change. And as stubborn as I am, and I didn’t really wanna give up what I’d fought for in this role that I had, I thought, you know what? I’m gonna just let it go, and I’m gonna accept. You’re saying about leaning into the guilt and leaning into, like, not letting the pressure get too much for you. I just decide to stop being stubborn and stop trying to prove a point and just let it go and move on and move into a different role that was gonna be better for my well-being and better for my work life balance.

Rebecca Fleming [00:35:54]:
I look back now two and a half years in and think why did I not do that sooner? How did I dig my heels into something so negative so long? So again, another thing that I’ve kind of done to protect myself is it’s sort of accepting that sometimes you just have to let it go. If it’s not working for you and if it’s not making you feel well or happy, you have to just change. I’m terrified of change. I’m not a risk taker, really. It’s all in life. And I think I took a risk and yeah. Because 1 of the things that I need to mention and I haven’t mentioned is the other pressure about being a single mom is everything is on you. This roof above my head right now is only here because of my money, my work, my time, my effort.

Rebecca Fleming [00:36:43]:
I can’t let max down. I can’t afford to fail. 1 thing you take for granted, and I hugely took this for granted when I was married, was the support I had. And I could choose to take a risk, and it wouldn’t really matter if it went wrong because he was there to pick up the pieces and catch me when I thought was was falling. I have become so scared of taking risks because I can’t afford to fail. And I’ve become so protective about my space with Max and my home now. It’s so special to me. It means so much to me what I’ve what I’ve got here.

Rebecca Fleming [00:37:17]:
It’s my safe space. But because of that, in order to protect my sanity, I can’t take as many risks anymore, but I’m happy to do that because I just need stability and consistency.

Nicky Lowe [00:37:31]:
Yeah. This season in your life, that certainty is really important for both you and Max. Totally get that. But I also love that you’re kind of going, actually, I would have advocated for my own needs earlier and recognized that my well-being needed to be supported along that journey. So I think that’s a really powerful message for people to hear, and I’m so glad that you were able to do that. And I’m sorry, actually, like most of us, we have to suffer sometimes to get to that point. And I find for high achieving women, we’ve actually got a high tolerance for stress, so we can be in that survive mode for longer than is really feasible. Out of sheer stubbornness, as you said, like, I will make this work, and I will not step back or, like, just defeat in any way, but that can mean that we don’t give ourselves the space to have needs and meet our needs.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:23]:
I’m glad that you’ve reached a point where you can. So we’ve covered so much today, and this has been such a fantastic conversation. So thank you, Rebecca. If there was just 1 thing you would hope anybody listening to this conversation I

Rebecca Fleming [00:38:46]:
suppose, trust the just, I suppose, trust the process, actually. Now I’m a really strong believer in what will be will be. And quite often, I’ve lent into things that have come across my path quite organically and naturally, and not really chased it as much as I perhaps maybe people think you need to know I’ve never had a five year plan. I’ve never have sat and looked and mapped out my future career. And maybe maybe I could be even further progressed if I hadn’t done that. I don’t know. But for me personally, it’s worked really well just to go with the flow, which is shocking actually because I’m not that sort of person. Actually, I’m highly strong person.

Rebecca Fleming [00:39:30]:
But in my career, I am quite in control and quite go with the flow type and whatever comes my way, I’ve sort of tried to be agile and roll with the punches of it to try and just to go back to that well-being tip, just to try and kind of, because I felt as though if I set myself targets and goals and plans, and then I didn’t achieve them, there’s like another layer of beating yourself up to me about that. You know, it’s not only do you feel guilty that you haven’t ticked off all your jobs at home, that you’ve had rocketed up for the last three months. You’ve then also not ticked your career boxes that you set yourself at the start of the year, and it’s just too much pressure. So I think sometimes when you’re relaxed and you kind of roll with it, it just naturally finds its own way. It’s like water, isn’t it? It just finds its own level.

Nicky Lowe [00:40:19]:
I think that’s such a powerful share, actually, because we often think of high achieving kind of senior women. We’re very driven and there’s a plan. And I love that you’ve just taken the pressure off and go, it gives you that ability to be agile. Because as you say, you could have a five year plan in place, but in five years’ time, Max is going to be 13. You don’t know where he’s gonna be in his journey, how the teenage years are gonna impact him, and you can’t have a plan. You’ve got to go with the season that you’re in and flex and adapt to to what’s in front of you. So I think that’s a really powerful lesson, so thank you. So people wanna connect with you, Rebecca.

Nicky Lowe [00:40:55]:
Where’s the best point to place to point them to? And I can put the the link in the show notes. Where would you get people to connect with you on?

Rebecca Fleming [00:41:03]:
So LinkedIn is obviously the usual place of professional connections. So you can find me on LinkedIn. I do have my letters after my name, so it’s not always easiest to find, but Rebecca Fleming, and then it’s got my NECPM registration after it. And I am a fellow of the RICS as well, which is a really big thing for me because such a small percentage of women in The UK are, fellows of the RICS. So if there’s anybody out there, you know, that wants to become a fellow of the RICS is is a chart surveyor like I am and want some help and advice and guidance on how to kind of really smash that. Always happy to kind of professionally link in with with other surveyors and help them through that process as well. So, you know, I mentor, I guide in that way as well. So if you do find my LinkedIn profile and you want to just chat about anything professionally, you know, I’m I’m there, and I’m happy to to help other people that want to progress their careers.

Rebecca Fleming [00:41:53]:
So

Nicky Lowe [00:41:54]:
Fantastic. Thank you. And thank you so much for your time and sharing your story and your journey with us, and just wish you all the best in Jan. 0 for the assessment with Max and for the journey ahead. So thanks, Rebecca. Thank

Rebecca Fleming [00:42:06]:
you so much. Thanks, Nikki. I really appreciate that.

Nicky Lowe [00:42:10]:
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