Nicky Lowe [00:00:06]:
Hi. It’s Nicki Lowe, and welcome to the Wisdom For Working Moms podcast show. I’m your host. And for nearly 2 decades now, I’ve been an executive coach and leadership development consultant. And on this show, I share evidence based insights from my coaching, leadership, and psychological expertise, and inspiring interviews that help women like you to combine your work, life, and motherhood in a more successful and sustainable way. Join me and my guest as we delve into leadership and lifestyle topics for women, empowering you to thrive one conversation at a time. I’m so happy that you’re here, And let’s go on with today’s episode. Welcome to this episode.

Nicky Lowe [00:00:48]:
And today we’re diving into a subject that feels really important for me as a parent at the moment. And I know I’m not gonna be alone in this. As a mum, I’m gearing up for the next chapter in my parenting journey with my 11 year old son’s big move to secondary school later this year. And I’m feeling the anticipation of a whole new era unfolding. With this era comes a fresh set of worries and challenges. And one of the big ones on my radar is around gaming. Is my child spending too much time playing video games? How do we stop the arguments and frustrations around the use of gaming? And how do I help my child establish healthy screen habits? Navigating the waters of parenting and screen time has been on my mind for a while now. On the one hand, screens can be a real lifesaver for us as working moms, but I can’t shake off my concerns about its impact.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:42]:
Managing screen time feels like a modern parenting problem, and the landscape seems to be constantly changing too. I’ve managed to keep my son’s gaming in check so far, but I know I can’t keep those floodgates close forever. I’m hungry for guidance on how to navigate this new territory and feel empowered as a parent. And that’s precisely why I am so excited about today’s guest, doctor Alok Kanaje. Doctor K, as he’s known by millions of people on the Internet, is a Harvard trained psychiatrist specializing in the intersection of technology and mental health. He’s the president and cofounder of Healthy Gamer and the author of How to Raise a Healthy Gamer. And doctor Kaye isn’t just a Harvard trained psychiatrist, though, as if that wasn’t enough. He’s a real life monk and a recovering gaming addict who knows firsthand that we need a fresh approach to technology, one that meets our young people right where they are online.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:43]:
With his blend of psychiatry, neuroscience and mindfulness expertise, Doctor. K is on a mission to help the internet generation live fulfilling, healthy lives. And we’re in for a real treat with the insights and wisdom from this world’s foremost expert on video gaming psychology. This is where science and spirituality meet, and I won’t keep you any longer. Let’s introduce Doctor. Kaye so much for joining me on the podcast show.

Dr K [00:03:10]:
Thank you so much for having me, Nikki.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:11]:
So you’re all the way over in Texas. Is it about 8 o’clock in the morning your time?

Dr K [00:03:16]:
Yeah. It’s 8 o’clock in the morning. Kids just went to school.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:20]:
Perfect. And how old are your children?

Dr K [00:03:22]:
They’re 68.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:23]:
So you’ve got similar ages to me. So, it’s I can’t wait to dive into this conversation because I know not only your own personal experience growing up as a gamer, but obviously now as a parent as well, and not to mention your kind of expertise and wisdom. So for those that don’t know about you and your work, can you share a bit of your story about how you’ve become this world leading expert in healthy gaming and gaming addiction?

Dr K [00:03:49]:
Sure. So, I grew up playing a lot of video games, and then I played way too many video games in high school and university, basically failed out of university. So I was on academic probation and kind of on my last leg from the dean, after about 2 years. And my parents had tried basically everything. They tried, like, being very harsh disciplinarians. They tried to be very, like, loving and accepting. Like, they, you know, they just couldn’t figure out how to get me to stop playing video games. I didn’t understand how to stop either.

Dr K [00:04:22]:
I really wanted to. I just couldn’t control it. So as a last ditch effort, my dad suggested I go to India and stay at an ashram, which is like a monastery where you, like, do yoga and meditation, and it’s full of monks and stuff. So I I did that the summer after my 2nd year of university, and I absolutely fell in love with it. So I I decided at the age of 21 to become a monk, and then I spent about 7 years with that goal, but then ended up meeting my wife. And so the whole monk thing did not seem like it was the right answer anymore. So I decided to come back to the world and then went to medical school. And then, originally, I was gonna do oncology, which is be a cancer doctor, but I just realized that I love the mind the most.

Dr K [00:05:09]:
So they say in med school, like, you know, you should pick what whatever specialty. Like, what what’s your favorite organ? And for me, it was the mind. So I I was really fascinated by how I could not control my mind. What I learned in India was all about being able to control your mind. So I became a psychiatrist, trained at Harvard, and then was faculty there for a couple of years. And then when I was training, really asked my mentors, this was about 10 years ago, so around 2015 or so, train asked my mentors who were just brilliant leaders in the field of psychiatry what they thought about video game addiction. And they were like, yeah, we’re not really too sure about it. And if you sort of stop and think about the leaders in academic fields or other industries, they’re usually people in their fifties, sixties, and seventies.

Dr K [00:05:56]:
They’ve been doing it for 30 years. And that’s when I realized, like, they’ve never played a video game. Right? So they they they have no firsthand experience of this problem. And so I got very interested in it and started helping gamers. So there wasn’t, like, even there even today in the United States, there’s not a formal diagnosis of it. The World Health Organization has kind of a prospective diagnosis. And so I started just talking to gamers, basically working with people who are like younger versions of myself, predominantly young men in their late teens, early twenties who were struggling to, like, get life on track, and worked with 100 of gamers over the next couple of years and sort of started this company, I guess. I mean, that’s not how it started out originally.

Dr K [00:06:40]:
And then, eventually, what we decided to do after working with a bunch of gamers is I just started streaming. So information about an education about technology, how your brain works, how to control your mind. And I did it on a gaming platform, Twitch. And we became the fastest growing stream on Twitch, the fastest growing channel for, like, a period of 3 months. And we really discovered that there’s just a huge need for this. So then we, you know, now at this point, we’re probably watched by 5 to 6000000 gamers a month. And then the fun part is once we started helping a bunch of, like, 20 year olds, then parents started reaching out and said, hey. My son or daughter is having huge problems.

Dr K [00:07:23]:
I don’t know what to do. They were in the same shoes that my parents were in. So then we started helping parents. Okay. Here’s how you should talk to your kid. Because I had been their gamer. Or I understood what it was like. I we’d helped tons and tons of them.

Dr K [00:07:33]:
So we know what works. We also do have, like, a pretty robust research division where we’ve done about 8 studies so far. So it’s not just that I think it works. It’s also that there’s a research verification of our methodologies. And so that’s kinda how we got to where we are today.

Nicky Lowe [00:07:50]:
I love that. And when I read your story, it was so compelling because it’s almost the scientific and your expertise in psychiatry combined with kind of the lessons that you learn in India, and I imagine, embodying your life and the parenting piece, how those all fit together. So I, yeah, when I read your book, I think you you’ve put so much expertise and wisdom that is so for parents. So I know when we get down into some of the specifics of this, that’s gonna be so useful for people. So thank you for sharing that. But what I’d love to do is just take a step back because there’s probably people listening that are like me that are kind of entering into the world of gaming really blindly. Like, our children are leading us into this world, and we’re like, right. We’ve gotta help them navigate it.

Nicky Lowe [00:08:41]:
But just like your professors at Harvard didn’t really know what they’re doing, I I find myself feeling like that. So I wanna take a step back and just ask a really, almost stupid, really simple question. When we talk about gaming, what actually do we mean, and how does that differ from perhaps, like, watching the television or watching an iPad? How does gaming differ from other digital kind of interactions?

Dr K [00:09:11]:
Yeah. It’s it’s it’s not a stupid question at all. Like, I I think it’s actually a it’s a simple question, but that doesn’t make it stupid. Oftentimes, the best, deepest, most important questions are actually the simplest questions. So let’s understand a couple things. So when you say digital inner digital stuff, there’s 2 buckets. Right? So if you talk about a TV, the key thing about a TV is that it doesn’t interact. So that there’s a pass you can be a passive recipient of a book, a television, listening to something like a podcast.

Dr K [00:09:43]:
And what really what we’ve seen with all of these technology addictions, social media addiction, video game addiction, is that these are interactive. So if you fundamentally look at the way that your brain works, your brain works on this principle of stimulus and response. Right? Watching someone or, like, talking to someone in reading a conversation are 2 entirely different things. So I think what people have discovered in the industry is how can we make games and some of these other forms of technology closer to real life, and not real life in the sense that we see, but real life in the sense of how can we make it trick your brain into thinking that this is real. And that’s the huge difference is that they’re fundamentally interactive, which is like apples and oranges.

Nicky Lowe [00:10:33]:
Okay. And I know that we’ll get into kind of some of the specifics around this. So what has made gaming so addictive? What’s some of the kind of neuroscience behind this? Because I know you dive into a lot of it in your book. But if you were to give us some highlights to help us understand as parents, what could be the issue with it becoming addictive?

Dr K [00:10:57]:
Yeah. So it’s it’s it’s a great question. We kinda outlined this in in in the book, how to raise a healthy gamer. So there’s a bunch of neuroscience, but what we’ve tried to do is boil it down to 5 or 6 things that parents need to know because it really intersects with their lives. There’s a ton of neuroscience, but what are the parts that you have to deal with and you have to understand? So a lot of people understand dopamine. So dopamine is our reinforcement signal in the brain. So it gives us pleasure. It gives us cravings in the future.

Dr K [00:11:26]:
So a lot of parents are well aware that once you let a kid start playing a video game, they’re gonna wanna play tomorrow. Very difficult. But what a lot of parents don’t realize is they’re not up just against dopamine. So a huge thing that video games do, this is what really leads to a lot of the addiction, is that they suppress our negative emotional circuits of the brain. So any addictive behavior or substance does 2 things. It gives us pleasure, and it takes away pain. So after a long day of work, I can go to the bar, go to the pub, and, like, you know, have a couple of pints, and that, like, dulls my negative emotional circuitry, helps me de stress, and that’s what games do as well. And this creates a problem, though, because in games, this is literally what happened to me, is that as I was ruining my life, there was so much shame associated with that.

Dr K [00:12:14]:
But the only way I could handle the shame was by playing more video games. So parents will see this thing, which is really confusing to them. They’re very familiar with dopamine, but they look at their kid who’s playing, and their kid isn’t having fun. They’re not, like, laughing and joking and very excited and very in a good mood at the end of it. What they oftentimes find is the kid is, like, angry, upset. And even when they stop playing, they’re not like it’s not like you’re back from vacation, and it’s like, oh my god. We had such a great time. It’s like the kid is moody, cranky, and that’s because what’s happening is the games are suppressing that negative emotional circuitry, but we’re not dealing with the emotions, which means that the moment that the video game stops, the crankiness returns, the moodiness returns.

Dr K [00:12:54]:
All of those things that have been artificially suppressed have now become active. So it’s just one example of of a very important principle that parents need to understand.

Nicky Lowe [00:13:03]:
And I think that can become tricky for parents because, actually, if it’s regulating kind of what we perceive to be the negative emotions, it could be, you know, you might go, oh, actually, it’s calmed them down. And you could see that in a positive light, but almost it’s becoming their emotional regulator, isn’t it, in a in a in a false

Dr K [00:13:27]:
way? Well, I mean yeah. And that’s it. That’s precisely what we see. Right? So if you look around, like, nowadays, you’ll see kids at restaurants on Ipads. When I go pick up groceries, I’ll usually see, like, 2 year olds, 3 year olds on devices very, very commonly. And parents do use it as an emotional regulator. And you’re absolutely right that once we use it as an emotional regulator, what happens is our children, their emotional regulation skills start to atrophy. So anything that, you know, the brain doesn’t need, it gets rid of.

Dr K [00:14:01]:
This is why we forget languages. And this is like this is this is a a feature. This is a feature of evolution where, okay, we don’t need emotional regulation, so let’s get rid of it. If we don’t use our muscles, our muscles will atrophy. They’ll get weaker over time. And so you’ll you we see a ton of problems in schools nowadays because kids have very poor emotional regulation skills probably because of technology use as a big part of it.

Nicky Lowe [00:14:25]:
And and I think that’s what scares me as a parent because I’m at this cusp of, as I say, entering into the gaming world with my son, but kind of going, ah, there’s potentially so many negatives associated to it. I almost don’t want him to go into that world. But knowing that I don’t think I can keep him from it. So how do we, as your book is all so brilliantly titled, create a healthy relationship with it. So what is the difference between healthy gaming and perhaps having a dysfunctional relationship with with gaming? How would you determine that?

Dr K [00:15:01]:
Yeah. So so there there are 2 kind of measurement sticks we can use. So the first is a clinical perspective. Right? So if we think about the diagnosis of an addiction, any addiction, what we’re basically looking for is impairment of function. So what this means is that the gaming is interfering with your ability to live a normal life. So it is significantly affecting your academics, your professional life, your physical health, your mental health, your relationships, which includes family. So usually, when we’re trying to figure out, okay, is this person addicted to something like alcohol or cigarettes, or is it is it a on the healthier spectrum, it’s how much does it mess with your life? That’s very simple from an addiction standpoint. From a more practical standpoint, so if this is more lived experience neuroscience, this isn’t really in the clinical criteria quite yet.

Dr K [00:15:52]:
What we tend to find is that video games are very good at tricking our brain into satisfying our psychological and neuroscientific needs. So if we look at something like community. So one of the reasons that games have gotten more addictive is because when I was playing a game growing up, like, you could beat the game. I had a Nintendo Entertainment System. I turn it on. There’s no friends. There’s no community. There’s nothing like that.

Dr K [00:16:18]:
I play through the game and the game is finished. But if you look at what developers have done, they’ve added more and more features to the game, like friendships, community, avatars, cosmetics. So now what we’re seeing is that there are a lot of fundamental human needs, like the desire to look good, which you can now do in a video game, the desire to have relationships with other people, which you can now do in the video game. And so as games become more addictive, what we’re seeing is that they’re fulfilling more psychological needs. Now this is when we become unhealthy gamers. So anytime our core biological, neuroscientific, and psychological needs are met by the video game instead of the real world, that is unhealthy gaming. And what we consider healthy gaming is when all of your needs are met in the real world, and then gaming is recreation. It’s fun.

Dr K [00:17:10]:
It’s an additional source of friends. It’s not the only source of friends. So that’s really what we look for is that you should have a fulfilling life, and then games can be a pleasurable recreation.

Nicky Lowe [00:17:22]:
I love that distinction. And I know in your book, you talk about it’s used for enjoyment rather than escape. And I thought, oh, that is so such a powerful, a a powerful way of kind of defining that. So as I’m starting to explore kind of this gaming world with my son, what advice would you give me or any parent listening about how do we create the conditions where there is more to be that healthy relationship? I know, you know, you’ve had the questions like, oh, is it a certain amount of time a day? And you’re like, no. No. No. We need to look at it from a completely different perspective. So what is that perspective?

Dr K [00:18:04]:
Yeah. So so, you know, it it’s it’s great. Right? Because I I do get those questions a lot. Is it a particular number of hours? Are these games okay? Those games okay? Right? And so I’d say, like, it’s just like any other form of parenting, where if I ask you, Nikki, what is the right dinner to feed my kids? And then you’re like, well, it depends. You know? What’s the right number of kids to have at a sleepover? When are they old enough to have a sleepover? And, like, the answer is it depends. It depends. It depends. Your child is a unique individual, so there’s not going to be a answer.

Dr K [00:18:33]:
So what we really emphasize is a methodology that allows you to play to your strengths and really understand your child. So the first goal that we should have is that this should not be an antagonistic relationship, and this is the biggest mistake that most parents make. So as you mentioned, there’s a lot to be afraid of when it comes to gaming, the Internet. And it’s not just the games themselves. Right? It’s also the people that they interact with. It’s no longer a solo thing, so they could be talking to, like, a 40 year old in a different country who has very strange views on race or ethnicity or or sexuality or whatever. Like, what you know, just there’s no filter. So it’s like, just imagine, like, going to the playground and you see, like, a bunch of middle aged men that are, like, playing with your kid.

Dr K [00:19:15]:
That’s literally what happens online, and parents aren’t aware of this. So a huge part of this is you have to be on the same team with your kids. And this is the the frustration that a lot of parents feel because they do feel that fear. And what happens when we, as parents, feel fear is we try to protect our children. And how do we protect them? Because 1000000 of years of evolution have said, if there’s a tiger attacking your kid or getting close to your kid, move them away from the tiger. So we react very instinctively, very powerfully, which is completely normal, but now the world has changed. So this is the key thing that’s so difficult for parents is that the parenting skills that they need, that we need, have never been needed before in the history of humanity. So one of the biggest things that we start with is get on the same team with your kid because the biggest challenge is that you wanna pull one way, they wanna pull the other way.

Dr K [00:20:06]:
Now y’all are in a fight, and that’s not even if you win, you’re gonna lose. So we start by recommending that you talk to your child. Right? Try to understand what is it that you like about the game? What is it that you don’t like about the game? How is school going? How are your friends? You know, let me understand your life. And oftentimes, when parents do that, what they will uncover is that there is something that the child is getting more from the game than real life. So they’re getting bullied in school. They have difficulty making friends. But when I’m online, it’s really easy to make friends. You know, because you have access.

Dr K [00:20:39]:
Like, at school, like, you only have access to a certain number of kids, and then if you get off on the wrong foot, you get a bad reputation. You can’t just change it. But the beautiful thing about the Internet is there’s literally, like, billions of people on there, and you can keep looking for people until you find your group. So really talk to your kids first. Try to understand what they like about the game. The second thing that we recommend is once you realize why they’re playing the game, then try to help them create that in the real world. And this is something that’s crazy for a lot of parents. They don’t they think that your kid resists real world stuff, but that’s because your child thinks that you’re you’re gonna try to take their game away.

Dr K [00:21:18]:
So if you really stop and think about it, there’s an antagonistic relationship. If they ever admit to you that there’s any kind of problem, they feel like they’re giving you ammo. Oh, now that you’re telling me that you’re getting you know, this you’re having trouble with friends. We need to make friends. No more gaming. Let’s remove that bad thing. So instead, what we need to help them do is create solutions in the real world where both of y’all are working together based on what their needs are. And that’s really, like, the the the thesis of our program, and it’s worked for 100 of people.

Nicky Lowe [00:21:49]:
I love that. Because what you’re tapping into there is those psychological needs that you talked about before. And what I what what I love about this is you’re then empowering your child with because you talk about the difference between restriction and restraint. And I think, well, I might be able to restrict my son while he’s under my roof, but, you know, in years to come when he leaves home, if I’ve not empowered him with the skills to be able to do that himself, then you just are setting up for a future problem. So it feels like with your approach, you’re educating and embedding that kind of restraint behavior and the tapping into the psychological needs and really being attuned to that from a young age.

Dr K [00:22:31]:
Yeah. And and let’s be honest. Like, even if you can restrict under your roof, like, that ain’t fun for no one. Right? So, like, even if you’re playing the game of restriction, it’s like your kid is gonna be fighting you. And this is the experience of so many parents. It’s like, yeah, while they’re under your roof, but, like, it’s a war zone in there. Right? Like and and so that’s so challenging. So I and I I really do think that I mean, that’s our attitude is that our job as parents is to prepare our children for the world that they’re gonna inherit.

Dr K [00:23:00]:
And technology is only going to get more addictive. So we we really sort of emphasize that quite a bit.

Nicky Lowe [00:23:07]:
So once you’ve kind of got on the same page and you’re right, okay. Let’s talk about how gaming kind of supports you. What are you enjoying about it? How else would you build on those strategies? So what are some of the other conversations or interactions that as parents, even from a very young age, we might wanna be having?

Dr K [00:23:29]:
Yeah. So I it’s a great question. So I think there are a couple of different things. So we are also big fans of, like, boundaries, proper boundary setting and enforcement. So this whole, like, get to know your kid is not it’s not just, like, talk to your kid and then don’t set any limits. There is a there is an evidence based way to set boundaries in that will lead to basically, like, solid behavior with, like, without a lot of resentment and a lot of pushback. And there’s a particular set of techniques, which we’ll get to in a second. But I’d say the the first thing to do once you understand kinda what’s going on with them is to then sort of tell your kid, okay.

Dr K [00:24:06]:
Like, at this point, there’s certain responsibilities I have as a parent. There’s certain things you like about the gaming, so let’s figure out, like, how to get these two things together. And as you mentioned, you know, you said empowerment is really important. We completely agree. So a lot of times, what parents don’t realize is that they’re running into friction that they don’t need to run into. So if we say something like 1 hour a day. Right? So then then if we kind of like a lot of gamers, myself included, hate the idea of 1 hour a day. I would rather play 5 hours on one day rather than 1 hour every single day.

Dr K [00:24:41]:
And and so what we oftentimes find is that when you empower your kids with choices so you can say you have to do get this homework done. You have to do this. You have to do this. You have to do this. And then you ask them, what’s the best way to do it? Do you wanna do 1 hour a day, or do you wanna do 5 hours on a Friday or or whatever? And oftentimes, your kids, once you give them a choice and this is something you’ve got kids on the younger side. So, you know, there’s a very great technique that we’ll we’ll teach parents of, do you wanna put your shoes on first or your hat on first or your coat on first? We give them the choice, and that reduces the resistance. So we we wanna understand, okay. What which part of gaming is the most fun for you? And then when you’re working with them in that way, that really lowers that resistance quite a bit.

Dr K [00:25:22]:
The second thing that we do is we really encourage awareness. So if you really think about responsibility, it is usually parents who have most of the responsibility. So if you tell your kid, like, okay. It’s you know, you have a test on Friday. Did you study for it? Did you study for it? Did you study for it? Did you study for it? So you’re constantly hounding them, making sure that they studied for the test. So if you really stop and think about it, at this point, your child’s brain isn’t keeping track of it because mom or dad is always there making sure it’ll get done. So you’re carrying the responsibility, which means that they don’t they can they can go wild. And they’re sure that when the time comes, you will force them to stop and make sure the work gets done.

Dr K [00:26:06]:
So you’re not really encouraging responsibility. This can feel like nagging and and stuff like that. So what we really try to do is encourage awareness and responsibility. So if you if you play today and you fail this test, that means for the next month, there’s gonna be no gaming. So it’s your choice. Right? So we we we encourage parents to leave the consequences up to the kids and leave the responsibility up to the kids. Now if you’ve got very young kids, that doesn’t work quite as well. And that’s also where we’ve divided things up into, you know, different ages and how to approach different cognitive development stages as well.

Nicky Lowe [00:26:40]:
Brilliant. And I love that because a lot of parents wouldn’t think, and me included, until I kinda came across your work about, you know, we think, oh, an hour a day, there’s this kinda arbitrary number that we think is like a healthy number, but we’ve not actually understood why or even checked in with our children that that might be something that they want and almost setting ourselves up for failure. Because as you say, no gamer wants to pay for just an hour, so why don’t we construct something that does work? And I’ve also heard you talk about actually checking in with your children as they’re playing to say, how does this feel? Does this still feel fun? Like, what’s going on for you as you’re playing so that they’re tuning into their experience as well?

Dr K [00:27:25]:
Yeah. So that that’s that’s something you mentioned earlier that, you know, we try to combine some of the spiritual perspective. And that’s one of the key things I learned in India was that, you know, we don’t pay attention to our experience of things very often. So we we go through life and we’re not really paying attention. So one of the key things that we’re not really paying attention. So we we go through life and we’re not really paying attention. So one of the key things that we strongly recommend, and this is what I do with my own kids. Right? So they started playing games for the first time when they were all about 3 years old, and and people may think, oh my god.

Dr K [00:27:51]:
That’s so young. But, oh, there’s a very specific way that we do it, which is that we check-in with the kids and we encourage awareness. So something that I I did a couple years ago, which I don’t have to do anymore, which is pretty cool. But so so what what I would do is I’d ask them, well, let’s say on a Saturday morning, what do y’all wanna do? And they’d say, I wanna I wanna we wanna watch TV. And then I’d say, okay. So how much do y’all wanna watch TV? They’re like, we really wanna watch. Okay. How long do y’all wanna watch? 10 minutes.

Dr K [00:28:16]:
Right? So this is what happens at at the beginning is the kids know that if they ask for a small amount, that’s no one everyone knows it’s not gonna be 10 minutes, but they’re not honest with you. So we wanna discourage that honesty. You can say, okay. You tell me however much you wanna watch and whatever number you tell me, we’re gonna do. Right? So then the first thing that you wanna do is, like, discourage honesty. So say, okay, we wanna watch for an hour. Okay. Fine.

Dr K [00:28:37]:
So then after 30 minutes, I’m gonna ask them, are y’all still having fun? And they’re like, yes. And then at 1 hour in, these my kids were pretty young, maybe like 4 and 6. So they they tend to get the wigglies and the crankies. Like, 1 hour in, it’s Saturday morning. They haven’t had breakfast. They’re starting to get cranky. They’re starting to fight. I’ll walk in.

Dr K [00:28:54]:
I’ll say, hey. Are we still having fun? They’re like, yes. We’re having fun. We don’t wanna stop. And they’re very cranky. So I say, okay. We said we were gonna do this for an hour. We’re gonna stop.

Dr K [00:29:03]:
Okay? They protest. Totally fine. So it seems like, okay. Look at this. So you guys got what you wanted, and you’re still unhappy. And they’re like, no. We’re happy. Okay.

Dr K [00:29:13]:
So we’re okay stopping. No. And so then I’ll take them to the playground, feed them something, and then I’ll ask them in half an hour. Hey. Was stopping the right call? Are y’all rather be at home? And they’ll say, no. No. No. We wanna stay at the playground.

Dr K [00:29:29]:
Right? And so they’re having fun at the playground. And sometimes you’ll have kids who maybe will say, yeah. We do wanna go home. But usually, what’s what happens is when you encourage awareness around technology use, kids are understand very well. I mean, their brains are designed to learn. And so really encouraging, like, being able to check-in with yourself. How do you feel? Are we having fun? And then you’ve done something super cool. In one day, they’ve learned that you can stop playing games, you can stop watching TV, you can go out, and you can still have a good time in the real world.

Dr K [00:30:01]:
So what we really encourage people parents to do is to really check-in with their kids about the impact. What does your child notice? Right? How do you feel hungry? Do you feel cranky? How much fun are you having? And then what that really does is that’s really what changes behavior. Because the the key problem, the reason parenting is hard is because your knowledge cannot be downloaded into their brain. They have to learn for themselves. So it’s about setting up an environment that really cultivates that understanding on their end by asking the right questions, setting up the right experiments. And then that really works way better. And now my kids are like, they’re it’s fantastic. Like, we play games on some days, but most mornings before noon, there’s, like, no technology use.

Dr K [00:30:43]:
And when we play games or we watch movies or whatever, it’s like it’s like a celebration. It’s like, hey. What do y’all wanna do today? We wanna play games. Okay. We haven’t played much. And they probably play for or or have screen time for somewhere, I guess, between 2 and 4 hours a week, usually in the weekends. Useful setting up. It it really does work.

Dr K [00:31:00]:
Like, it’s crazy.

Nicky Lowe [00:31:02]:
I love that.

Dr K [00:31:02]:
Yeah. I mean, parents think it doesn’t work, but it it’s it’s crazy because parents think that this is impossible. And and we’ve seen it, and it’s not just my kids. Maybe Mike I’m lucky, and my kids are obedient. But it’s it’s really just that we as parents don’t know how this works. Like, we don’t know the rules of the game. We don’t understand the neuroscience. We don’t understand the psychology.

Dr K [00:31:25]:
And once we equip parents with the right tools, we see this very consistently, and it’s worked for 100 of families.

Nicky Lowe [00:31:32]:
Brilliant. Because what you’ve said, you said something really powerful earlier that, like, we have not been equipped with the parenting skills for, like, this modern digital world. And I really feel that. And so what you’re sharing is so useful. And so one of the things you mentioned earlier as well is that, children could potentially be interacting with people we don’t know and they don’t know in the digital world. And I’m wondering what is some of the kind of tips or strategies you have for creating those healthy connections? Because you know, in the in in kind of previous times, we would say don’t talk to strangers. And and effectively what the our children could be doing is interacting with complete strangers. So what are some of the strategies for doing that in a healthy way?

Dr K [00:32:22]:
Yeah. So that’s a great question. So the this is where there’s some good science, thankfully. So the first thing is that, like, if a child has access to technology in their room, it increases usage by up to 50%. So one of the simplest things that you can do is take the device out. I know you were asking about relationships and stuff, but that’s connected. So when a child has access privately, you have very little idea of what’s going on. So if it’s in their room, you don’t know who they’re talking to, etcetera.

Dr K [00:32:50]:
So one thing that we we recommend is that, you move gaming gaming consoles and stuff to a common space and also that you sometimes encourage your children to use speakers instead of headphones so you actually hear the language that’s being used. I mean, sometimes it’s, like, pretty like, not pretty. It’s incredibly toxic. It’s something that I’ve never heard. I mean, I I work with people who are high on cocaine in emergency rooms, and the worst things that I’ve ever heard come out of a human being’s mouth are over the Internet when I’m playing a video game and someone is angry. Like, this is crazy, what what people actually say and how common it is. So so, really, you wanna what you wanna do is is be involved. So use speakers instead of headphones.

Dr K [00:33:31]:
So that way when you’re kinda walking by, you hear the tone of what’s being said. There are a lot of great parental controls you can use, like disabling voice chat, which I would strongly recommend if your kid is, like, under the age of, like, 13 or 14 or even 15. So that way, when you’re kinda walking by, you hear the tone of what’s being said. There are a lot of great parental controls you can use, like, disabling voice chat, which I would strongly recommend if your kid is, like, under the age of, like, 13 or 14 or even 15. And then a couple of other things that you can do is just talk to your kids about it and sit next to them while they’re playing. Just see who they interact with. Right? So so, like, just ask them, you know, who do you play with? What are they like? And this is where it’s like it’s not just because there’s an age difference, I don’t think that that is necessarily bad. Like, I you know, I I’m 41.

Dr K [00:34:03]:
I play video games with and sometimes there’s, like, a 16 year old kid on my team. Like, I remember when I was in med school, you know, there was a there was a a a a my friend’s younger brother, who was, like, 15, would play, and he’s like, I have to go. My mom is saying that I have to do this. And and that’s where I would encourage him. Be like, go do that. You’ll be grateful. Like, get a good night’s rest. Like, you know, the game’s always gonna be there tomorrow.

Dr K [00:34:23]:
You can get a lot of positive influences. Just because they’re older doesn’t mean that they’re bad. But I I’d I’d strongly recommend just talking to your child about what interactions are like. Do you have friends? What are they like? What do you like about them? And then also, like, being a little bit involved in the sense of be careful about headphones, be careful about usage in the room.

Nicky Lowe [00:34:43]:
Yeah. Those are really good practical ones. And I also I from what you were saying earlier, you actually game with your children. And that’s not something I’ve never really gained, but I’m wondering actually to join my son in his world and to to to kind of explore that with him rather than seeing it’s something he does.

Dr K [00:35:04]:
Yeah. I mean, I I think they love teaching you stuff. Right? So it it it changes the relationship where where you sit down with your kid and then you ask them, hey. Like, can you teach me how to play this? And you’re gonna be terrible at it, but, like, it’s really fun for a kid to be the leader. Right? It’s really fun for the kid to be introducing you to something that they love. And and so, you know, it’s like, oh, like, tell you know, when I when my daughters are playing with their dolls, they’re you know, I’ll be like, okay. What does this doll do? Like, tell me about this. And they love it.

Dr K [00:35:32]:
So I we strongly recommend that one of the ways you can engage it’s not that every parent has to game with their kids, but it it’s a really beautiful signal to send to them that, hey. I’m not, like, opposed to this. Right? So, like, show me with this. I’m interest like, it demonstrates curiosity. And the other beautiful thing that we tend to see is that, see, right now when parents respond with fear and restriction, there’s no collaboration, there’s no curiosity. And so interestingly enough, your children will model their behavior based on what you do. So if you’re setting limits without any discussion, without any understanding, they’re going to they’re not gonna try to understand you. And then parents will say, you need to understand, but the parent isn’t attempting to understand.

Dr K [00:36:14]:
So they’re saying one thing and doing another. So this is where sitting down and playing with your your kids or even watching them play can really demonstrate to them that, hey. We’re I’m being curious. I’m being open minded, and then they will start doing the same. They’re gonna do whatever you do. So if you’re open minded and curious, they will be open minded and curious.

Nicky Lowe [00:36:32]:
Brilliant. Thank you. And I know in your book, though, you you talk about, problematic gaming behavior coexists with neurodivergent issues. And I was really intrigued by that because my my son, has some neurodivergence, but I know quite a few people that that also have that in their kind of family system. And I was just curious as to what what what advice you might have for somebody that has got a neurodivergent child? What might be some of the kind of other strategies or things that we need to pay attention to?

Dr K [00:37:06]:
It’s a it’s a great question. So the first thing is not even advice. It’s that chances are this journey will be harder for you. So this is like I I hate to be blunt about it, but this is just what I’ve seen. So if you look at neurodivergence, whether it’s ADHD or something on the autism spectrum, exploit our psychological or neuroscientific needs. That vulnerability is greater in some ways for people who have ADHD and are on the autism spectrum. So there are a couple of things we have to consider. The first is that it’s I hate to say it, but it’s an uphill battle.

Dr K [00:37:47]:
So let’s understand why. The first thing is that, see, what a child with ADHD loves more than anything else is to actually focus. So kids, I probably could have been diagnosed with ADHD when I was growing up. I have one child who may be diagnosed with ADHD. She’s certainly got a lot of features of it. And so if if you really stop and think about it, the child the the life of a child with ADHD is very challenging because you’re sitting there at school, the teacher is telling you to pay attention, but your mind doesn’t pay attention. You’re trying. You’re trying really hard, but your mind just doesn’t listen.

Dr K [00:38:21]:
So the beautiful thing about the video game is that it allows you to pay attention because there’s so much color stimulation, there’s so much engagement, there’s so much noise, and there’s a very satisfying, like, flack when you, you know, when or there’s a pickaxe that you use to mine something and it’s just very, like, sensory. So it engages you and it’s it’s very lovely. It’s very calming for kids with ADHD. So this is very challenging. Second thing to understand is that kids on the autism spectrum, especially, will really struggle. And that’s because in the real world so if you look at kids on the autism spectrum, this can be somewhat true of ADHD as well, they really like to understand the rules. The problem is that in the world we live in, it’s a world for neurotypical people where we don’t teach the majority of the rules. How do you make a friend? That’s not ever taught to you.

Dr K [00:39:08]:
What is the right way to behave when someone makes fun of you? That’s not something that’s taught to you. The majority of the skills that we need, especially social skills, the rules of the game are not taught to you in life. So it’s very confusing for kids who are on the spectrum. Whereas in the video game, the beautiful thing is that everything is laid out. Right? This button moves this character forward. This button jumps. This button crouches. This button swims, this button does this.

Dr K [00:39:32]:
And everything is laid out. So it it’s very, very orderly, and that’s very appealing. So when when we work with and I’ve worked with tons of people on the spectrum. And what I tend to find is that, like, you know, life is just confusing for them. They don’t their brains aren’t able as easily able to deduce what’s going on. And so I have this very confusing place where the rules keep changing and no one ever explains it to me. And then the most terrifying thing, we have so many people who are on the spectrum in our community, is that then someone will tell them the rules. Right? This is the way that you make friends, and then they will go out and they will follow step number 1, step number 2, step number 3, and it doesn’t work out.

Dr K [00:40:06]:
It’s because their empathy is a little bit different. So so this is what’s beautiful about the game is that a a lot of communication is like typing. There’s no tone. There’s no body language. There’s no, you know, facial expressions, which they’re not quite as good at interpreting. So it it’s very, very easy for them to love these things. So as for tips, I wish I could say, if you have a kid with ADHD, here’s the one thing that you can do that will make everything easier. I think the first thing you have to do as a parent is understand your child’s life.

Dr K [00:40:37]:
Right? So understand some of these things. Really talk to them about what is it that you like, what what is it that you don’t like. And then I think this is why it’s doubly important to do exactly what we said in the first place, which is that recognize that your children the reason that they’re diving into games is because fulfilling these needs in the real world is twice as hard for them. So y’all have to work twice as hard to really focus on this. And then that’s also the last thing is that, unfortunately, these are clinical diagnoses that can be quite patchy. So there are 3, probably 3 or maybe even 4 subtypes of ADHD, depending on what your symptoms are. The autism spectrum is a spectrum that goes from everything from, like, nonverbal to high functioning and, like, completely misdiagnosis. So this is where we offer some tips.

Dr K [00:41:22]:
Like, there are particular games that increase the likelihood of behavioral meltdowns in in kids on the autism spectrum by 50%. So stay away from those kinds of games. So we’ll we’ll so there there are some tips here or there, but generally speaking, like, it’s just understanding how your child’s brain is different and how you have to adapt our general strategy to fit a neurodiverse child.

Nicky Lowe [00:41:46]:
And you’ve talked a lot about the tips, and we’ll come on to signpost to all of your work to your community. I’m also interested in how your experience in India and in the ashram and the journey that you went on as a monk has informed your life and your parenting generally beyond gaming? Because it sounds like, actually, you you talk about change is not created. It’s cultivated. And you talk about in the that in the book around gaming. But I imagine that applies to kind of your parenting and your life in general. So I’d love to hear anything you’d be willing to share from that experience.

Dr K [00:42:22]:
Yeah. Sure. I mean, I I’m happy to share. I think a lot of parents aren’t gonna like it though. So so I I think, like so there are a couple of big things that I’ve learned that have really informed my journey. So and this is terrifying as a parent, but, so one simple thing. So when I say, you know, change isn’t created. It’s cultivated.

Dr K [00:42:41]:
So this is very confusing for a lot of people. So you really look at it technically. The only thing that you control in this life is yourself. So a lot of as parents, what we want is we want we want our kids. We want their lives to be a particular way, but we cannot create that for them. Like, this is crazy. Right? But you can’t create you cannot make a successful life for your child. You cannot make a happy life for your child.

Dr K [00:43:06]:
You cannot make a safe life for your child. Now can you strive for those things? Absolutely. But one of the things that I sorta recognize is that my children and I’ve seen this. So I I did a lot of addiction psychiatry work. And this is where I really learned this lesson, not just in the ashram, but I I later saw it, which is that sometimes you have a child who has such severe addiction problems, and you meet the parents, and then you understand why. Because these parents, I hate to say it, but sometimes parents are awful parents, like, from a clinical perspective. They’re not emotionally supportive. They can be abusive.

Dr K [00:43:38]:
You know, they’re they’re very they pay play a lot of power games, and they’re very wealthy, and they’ll use money as a tool to coerce their child’s behavior. There’s all kinds of crap that I’ve seen that’s terrible. And then sometimes you see a child with addiction who has the opposite for parents. Loving parents, supportive, setting firm boundaries, doing everything right, just fantastic parents, and the child still has an addiction problem. And so this is where I kinda realize, you learn this in medicine. Right? So you you’ll see people who have cancer and they can be good people, they can be bad people. We can’t control very much in life, honestly. And so interestingly enough, what what I try to do with my kids is recognize that.

Dr K [00:44:15]:
Right? So I can’t prevent my child from doing x, y, or z. And and so instead, what can I do? Well, I can try to do the best that I can to keep that from happening, but how do I do that? I have to try to cultivate certain experiences. I have to try to cultivate particular understandings and then recognize at the end of the day that they’re the ones that are living their life. And so it’s not so much about creating a life for them as it is about doing the best that I can as a parent to cultivate particular kinds of experiences where, hopefully, they take away the right lessons. And so a big part of what I really try to do is check-in with them. So it’s not like we’re gonna do this and then you’re gonna learn this. It’s, hey. Let’s try this.

Dr K [00:45:00]:
This is why I wanna do this. And then let’s see what you learn. So a lot of parents are very surprised because I I tend to be like, I’m not very like, in some ways, I’m I’m kind of a harsh disciplinarian, but in a lot of ways, like, I’ll give my kids a lot of latitude. And then the other big thing that I’ve learned is that I let my kids fail. So, like, you you know, like, I I don’t protect them from failure. So if they wanna make a decision and that decision has bad consequences, then that decision has bad consequences. So one of my kids, for example, her friends are in the gifted and talented part of the class and she isn’t. And this was the kind of thing that as an Indian kid, you know, my parents were like, grades, grades, grades, grades, grades.

Dr K [00:45:45]:
And we sat down and we talked about it and we said, how does it feel? And she’s very hurt by this. She feels like her friends are smarter than they are than she is. And I said, that’s not true. It’s how hard you work, and now it’s your choice. If you wanna be in that class, you can get in there, and I will help you, but you have to decide. Whereas a lot of parents will push their kids. They try to create a life for their kids. I don’t try to do that.

Dr K [00:46:05]:
It doesn’t work. I can’t do that. I’m not omnipotent.

Nicky Lowe [00:46:09]:
And I I love what you’re saying because in some ways, as you say, to hear that can be scary for parents, but it’s actually incredibly freeing because what I’m hearing is you’re creating this safe container and trying to teach principles and values, but knowing that you can’t kinda keep them safe or keep them happy. That’s just not possible. It’s the reality of life, and it’s how do you set them up to navigate that.

Dr K [00:46:34]:
I’ve seen that clinically when when you know, I work with parents that really will try to create a life for their children, and what they end up doing is infantilizing them. So we’ll have, you know, 22 year olds, 23 year olds who, like, the parents have been so careful about everything that they’ve done that the kid can’t fly on their own. And it’s it’s really sad.

Nicky Lowe [00:46:55]:
Oh, thank you for sharing that because it has actually it feels like there’s almost a surrender to it that feels feels quite freeing.

Dr K [00:47:03]:
Oh, yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:47:05]:
I know people are gonna wanna find out more about you and your work. So where would you where would you point them to? Where where can they find you on social media? Where’s the best places?

Dr K [00:47:18]:
Sure. So our YouTube channel is Healthy gamer g g. So that’s where a lot of people find us. And, you know, we have a a a book that just came out, How to Raise a Healthy Gamer, and that’s basically available anywhere books

Nicky Lowe [00:47:31]:
sold. Fantastic. And I can highly recommend the book. You’ve written it beautifully for parents because I kind of was like, oh, there’s this world of gaming that I don’t understand. Am I gonna, am I gonna get it? And it’s just this perfect mix of practical solutions, really understandable neuroscience and psychology behind it, and just a reassuring book. So I I would highly recommend people getting out. So if there was just one thing that you want somebody who’s listening to this conversation to take away from it, what would you want that to be?

Dr K [00:48:04]:
So the one thing I would tell parents is that we’re outgunned. So we have, like, literally a multibillion dollar industry, which is employing neuroscientists, behavioral economists, psychologists, programmers to try to addict your children. Even though we’re outgunned, the only reason we’re losing this war is because we don’t have the basic information required to fight back. It doesn’t take 1,000,000,000 of dollars of research. The the bond between parent and child and most parents out out there are pretty good. What we’ve seen time and time and time again is if you level the playing field just a little bit, parents and kids do awesome. So don’t give up hope. It can absolutely be done, and you can absolutely raise a healthy gamer.

Nicky Lowe [00:48:51]:
Powerful message to end on. Thank you, doctor Kanaje. Thank you for your time today.

Dr K [00:48:55]:
Thank you so much, Nicky.

Nicky Lowe [00:48:57]:
If you’ve enjoyed this episode of wisdom for working moms, please share it on social media and with your friends and family. I’d love to connect with you too. So if you head over to wisdom for working moms.co.uk, you’ll find a link on how to do this. And if you love the show and really want to support it, please go to Itunes, write a review, and subscribe. You’ll be helping another working mom find this resource too. Thanks so much for listening.