Nicky Lowe [00:00:00]:
Hi it’s Nicky Lowe and welcome to the Wisdom for Working Mums podcast show. I’m your host and for nearly two decades now I’ve been an executive coach and leadership development consultant. And on this show I share evidence based insights from my coaching, leadership and psychological expertise and inspiring interviews that help women like you to combine your work, life and motherhood in a more successful and sustainable way. Join me and my special guests as we delve into leadership and lifestyle topics for women, empowering you to thrive one conversation at a time. I’m so happy that you’re here and let’s get on with today’s episode. If you’ve ever felt like your brain is running a never ending to do list, if you’re the one who remembers the dentist appointments, the birthday gifts, the school emails, the and still keeps things moving at work, then this episode is going to speak right to your experience. And I say that with total empathy because I’ve been right there recently. It was my daughter’s seventh birthday over the last few weeks and she’d asked to have a few friends over for a party at home.

Nicky Lowe [00:01:18]:
Lovely, right? But as the week approached, I could feel my nervous system going on high alert. The details are stacking up in my mind. You know, the party bags, the past, the parcel, the food, the decorations, on top of the usual work deadlines, client meetings and day to day logistics. It wasn’t just a party. It was a fresh layer of the cognitive labor invisible to most but heavy to carry. And here’s the kicker. I felt that I wasn’t a good mum if I didn’t carry out all those tasks myself and do them with joy. I didn’t ask for the help I needed, I just got on with it.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:00]:
And it was hard. That’s why I’m so excited to welcome today’s guest, Dr. Kate Mancino, a gender expert, researcher and author of a brilliant book called Equal Partners. And you may have heard her on one of my all time favorite podcasts. We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach. And if you did, you’ll know exactly why I’m thrilled She’s joining us here on Wisdom for Working Mums. And Kate’s book Equal Partners. Improving Gender Equality at Home gets right to the heart of what so many of us feel but rarely say out loud.

Nicky Lowe [00:02:38]:
Or if we do, we don’t know how to say it in a productive way. It’s about the mental load, who carries it, why it matters, and how we can change it. Kate brings over 20 years experience working globally on social norm change. And her work has been featured in Time, Slate, Harvard Business Review, cnn, BBC World News, and more. And in today’s conversation, we’re diving into the truth about the mental load and why we can’t truly thrive at work unless we share the load at home. And this is a conversation for everyone, not just parents, not just women. It’s about building better, more equal lives. And I know you’re going to love what Kate’s got to say.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:24]:
I love this conversation. Kate and I have had the opportunity to collaborate before, and her lens on this and the language she uses is really accessible, really inclusive. And I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. I won’t keep you any longer. Let’s get into it. So welcome, Kate. It is great to have you on the podcast.

Kate Mangino [00:03:44]:
Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here with.

Nicky Lowe [00:03:46]:
You because we’ve been collaborating for a little while now, and it’s through the collaboration I was like, I’ve got to get you on the podcast. Your message is so important, as we know and I think will resonate with everyone listening. So I can’t wait to dive into this. So obviously we’re here to talk about the mental load, and I think it’s a term that’s becoming more used in our kind of society. But not everybody might actually understand what we fully mean by that term. So could you kind of tell us actually what, in your view, the mental load is?

Kate Mangino [00:04:21]:
I actually, I don’t disagree with the term mental load. I use it. I know it’s commonly used. My preference is to use the term cognitive labor, which was coined by Allison Daminger. She’s a professor in Wisconsin. And I think that cognitive labor just sort of best describes what it is because she has a definition that I’ve taken on. Cognitive labor is the anticipation of needs, the researching of options, making decisions, and evaluating a process. And if you think about all of the little things that happen in a household, that’s different than a physical task.

Kate Mangino [00:05:02]:
Physical tasks are like doing dishes, bathing a child, sitting down to help with homework, cooking a meal. But cognitive labor or mental load are all of those things that aren’t captured in a physical way. But it’s a lot of pressure, stress, thinking, deciding, have. If anyone out there listening has ever thought, if you’ve had it, had that day where you think, I just don’t want to make one more decision, you’re probably carrying the mental load. And if anyone has ever been a project manager, then this sequence of anticipating needs, researching Making decisions, evaluating probably sounds really familiar to you because that’s what it is. It’s project management, but it’s project management on a huge scale with emotion involved, because it’s your family and people that you love, and you’ve got 50 projects happening at one time. So you’re. You’re always in a different stage of your cognitive labor depending on what you’re working on.

Nicky Lowe [00:06:01]:
Great description. And I love how you’ve reframed that for. For me and for everybody listening, because those discrete elements of that, each one, as you were saying, like, yeah, anticipating needs. Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Kate Mangino [00:06:15]:
So much time. Anticip needs. Like, what’s happening tomorrow, next week, next month, next year. Always trying to stay ahead of it. And I always say people who do cognitive labor, you know, it’s sort of a vicious cycle, because the more you do it, the more you want to do it, because we know when we don’t anticipate needs and we’re caught off guard, we’re the ones picking up the pieces. So that propels us to do even more cognitive labor and even more anticipation of needs, and it’s hard to let it go. Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:06:44]:
And I often refer to it as that relentless responsibility, because as you say, once you’re on the treadmill, you can’t get off it. Or if you do get off it, as you say, there are consequences that you’re kind of balancing. So I would love it if you could kind of draw the dots for us. I always talk about, like, the. The. You can see the breadcrumbs that lead somebody to do the work that they do. And I know that you have, like, a really robust academic kind of perspective on this, but you have a deeply personal one as well that kind of started in your kitchen. So would you mind shar that story from your book, because it’s such a powerful one?

Kate Mangino [00:07:19]:
Sure, I’d be happy to. This was in 2016, I believe. My kids were little still. They were like 2 and 5. And at that point in time in my life, I was finishing up my dissertation. I was teaching two or three undergraduate classes, and I was the alpha parent. I was the one who did drop off and pick up and all of the cognitive labor. And I was the one that got the phone call in the middle of the day if my kid was sick.

Kate Mangino [00:07:50]:
And I was operating at sort of maximum capacity. I was just getting through the days. And my dissertation was due by Christmas. That was the goal. And it was roughly Halloween. I remember it was like, late October. And my advisor called me in and said, you know, I’m sorry, but my schedule is changing, and I can’t review your. Your dissertation in January.

Kate Mangino [00:08:14]:
I need you to turn it in by the end of November because I need to review it in December. So I was barely keeping up with my life. I had two months to finish the writing, and now I had one month. And I went home, and it was an evening meeting. So when I got home, my kids were asleep, and Evan, my husband, was in the kitchen, like, cleaning up. And I sat on the floor of my kitchen next to where he was washing dishes, and I. I lost it. I just.

Kate Mangino [00:08:42]:
I had a complete meltdown. I just started sobbing and sobbing, and I couldn’t stop. You know, once those. The tears that you’ve been suppressing for so long start to come, and they’re just. It’s like the floodgates. And Evan is a nice human being. It’s why I married him. He sat down next to me on the floor, and he wanted to make me feel better.

Kate Mangino [00:09:02]:
So he kept saying, how can I help? What can I do to help? And that’s when my anger. Or, sorry, that’s when my sadness turned to anger. And I. I didn’t mention that my dissertation topic was looking at the intersection of women’s empowerment and masculinity studies. So I just happened to have this literature review fresh on my brain from years of research, and I just lost it. And I said to him, you don’t get it. I don’t want you to help. I don’t want to be the household manager.

Kate Mangino [00:09:36]:
I don’t want to be the person in charge. I don’t want you to do tasks that I set out for you. That’s work for me. I want you to be my partner. I thought we got married to be a team, and we’re not a team. And it’s not just us, you know? And I started naming all these statistics that in heteronormative families, one person does two thirds or more of the work, and one person does one third or less of the work in the household. And that we push one person to focus on income generation, and we push one person to focus on domestic issues. And I said.

Kate Mangino [00:10:10]:
And it’s harming both of us. I said, our kids are so little. They’re still so little. And I already find myself pulling away from work. I already find myself not putting my hat in the ring for a conference or not agreeing to do a chapter in a book because I don’t have the time, because I have so much household responsibility. And I Already see you leaning into work and taking those extra trips and those extra projects and those extra responsibilities so that you can climb the ladder and make more money. And I get why we’re both doing it because we’ve been socialized to take care of the home and take care of the workplace. But this is going to harm both of us long term, and we have to do something about it.

Kate Mangino [00:10:53]:
And we sat down and we had a talk. And that’s sort of where the book idea came from, because I had all of this academic information that I was able to apply to my life and work through it. And I thought, the average person doesn’t have access to this literature review in my brain right now. And so how can I package it into a book where, you know, the average person can access it and use it maybe to be helpful when they have their own kitchen floor moment?

Nicky Lowe [00:11:20]:
I love that. And you write about it so compelling in the book, and it’s just brilliant to hear you talk about that personally, too. And for those that don’t know, I’d love for you to paint the picture of how you even came to be doing this work in terms of looking at gender norms and how they show up in our lives. So would you mind just kind of talking a bit about your background?

Kate Mangino [00:11:42]:
Of course. I. Let’s see. I am firmly Gen X. So I started my career in the early 2000s, and back then we said we did gender, but it wasn’t really gender. We were doing work with women and girls. We called it gender, but it was work with women and girls. This was about 20, 25 years ago, and my first.

Kate Mangino [00:12:03]:
One of my first jobs, which I loved, it was a dream job. I worked on a women’s leadership program and I was a technical person. So we had a whole logistics team. I didn’t have to do any logistics. I had these awesome professionals I got to work with. I just got to write curriculum, design curriculum and travel around the world and do workshops for amazing women leaders. I think we had people from over 60 countries participate. We did workshops.

Kate Mangino [00:12:28]:
We did some in Washington, D.C. where I was based, but we did. We did them globally, and it was amazing. And I got to meet phenomenal women and I got to research, you know, leadership trends, and we did communication and project management and budgeting and finance. But what I learned over the years of doing that job, because there’s the sessions, but the real conversations happen during tea break and dinner and, you know, walks away from the hotel at night, that sort of thing. And I just kept hearing feedback from people that, that this wasn’t enough, that I would hear from the women. These skills are fantastic, and I’m grateful for this opportunity. So, you know, don’t, don’t misunderstand my information.

Kate Mangino [00:13:13]:
I’m, I’m very happy for the scholarship. I’m happy for this opportunity. I’m learning a lot. But what’s holding me back, it’s not my own capacity or my own skills. What’s holding me back is something out of my control. It’s my father who won’t let me go back to graduate school. It’s my husband who won’t let me work full time. It is a boss who doesn’t think that I have what it takes, you know, to, to lead a project.

Kate Mangino [00:13:42]:
And that really got me thinking about, you know, sort of the environment that women leaders are working in and all of the books and all of the courses and all of the podcasts and all of the, everything that’s focusing on women’s skill building, you know, or women’s negotiation skills. But the truth is, is that we’re still operating in a patriarchal social context, and that isn’t changing, and it’s certainly not changing fast enough. So that’s what led me to do the research of my PhD and to look at sort of how masculinities in its academic format, you know, sort of can be applied to women’s empowerment. So that’s where the process started.

Nicky Lowe [00:14:25]:
And I know that you’ve got huge experience working in kind of developing countries as well, and I imagine in certain parts of the world that was even more stark.

Kate Mangino [00:14:35]:
Absolutely. So I always tell people, you know, gender equality is everywhere, but it looks different from country to country. Right. Some there’s just different, a different set of issues from place to place. But I have not been to a country that isn’t struggling with some sort of inequality, including Scandinavia.

Nicky Lowe [00:14:52]:
Yeah, interesting. And I know you’ve lived in many of these countries as well, so I’m curious then, what are you seeing over time around gender equality in the home? So you’ve said, clearly you’ve been working on this for a number of decades now. What are you seeing in terms of those trends?

Kate Mangino [00:15:14]:
So I think, you know, I always go back to our time journals. We sociologists started time journals back in the 60s, which is fantastic. So I look at timestamps in 1965 in different sex relationships because they weren’t monitoring queer same sex relationships. In the 60s. Typically, men did about 15% of the household work and women did about 85%. And, you know, based on the stories from the 60s of our mothers and grandmothers, that, that tracks. By 1985, that had shifted to 65. 35.

Kate Mangino [00:15:46]:
Men are, we’re doing 35% in the house and women were down to 65. And I think that mirrors what was happening with women entering the workforce. Between 1965 and 1985, there was a huge shift that happened in the professional space and in the home space in 2020 that had only changed from 67 to 33%. So from 1985 to 2020, we’ve only seen a 2% shift, which is nearly plateau. That’s a very, very tiny shift. So I think we are stagnant right now. We’re not making any real progress, except that we’re talking about it differently and we’re talking about it more broadly, which I think is a huge step forward in itself. The other thing is those time journals, we’re only looking at different sex couples now.

Kate Mangino [00:16:34]:
We’re looking at all kinds of families, which is fantastic. And we’re seeing inequality in same sex and queer couples as well. So we know this is not just. This is about roles, it’s not about gender identity. And we’re also talking about the mental load and we’re talking about cognitive labor. Those old time journals only accounted for physical tasks. I do cognitive labor when I’m in the shower, when I’m driving, when I’m on the rare occasions when I’m exercising. They weren’t taking into account for that.

Kate Mangino [00:17:04]:
But we are now starting to find ways to track cognitive labor and mental load. So I think that, I think that the study is getting better and I hope that that will lead to more impact. But we just haven’t seen impact in the household quite yet. And from the information that we have, the Millennials did not make much of a change, I’m sorry to say. Gen Z, we’re starting to see they’re starting to partner up and move in together. And again, I think Gen Z are more comfortable with gender fluidity. They’re comfortable with pronoun changes, they’re more comfortable with sexual orientation. When it comes to household norms, it’s funny, they’re still falling back into the same patterns.

Kate Mangino [00:17:48]:
And in fact, we’re seeing that Gen Z partners are more disappointed with their relationship than boomer partners because, you know, Gen X and baby boomers, there was the expectation that women were going to do more in the home. So it didn’t catch anyone off guard. You just did what you thought was going to happen. What’s happening with Gen Z is girls are being raised to be equal citizens and then they become part of a relationship and they’re expected to sort of take over the domestic space and be the household managers. And they’re confused. Where is this coming from? Because we’re not raising boys differently. We can get into this later, but we’ve changed the way we’re raising girls and we’ve changed the expectations that little girls have, but we haven’t changed the way we raise boys. And so when people are partnering up in their 20s, there’s a huge disconnect around expectations.

Nicky Lowe [00:18:46]:
It’s so powerful to hear. And I hope that every single person listening takes. And it sounds strange to say because that the trend is really disappointing and really, you know, is really saddening. But I hope that people can take comfort that if they’re struggling with this in their own homes, it’s not a personal failure, it’s a systemic.

Kate Mangino [00:19:10]:
Yeah, not at all personal because I.

Nicky Lowe [00:19:13]:
Always thought that I was. I look back, I did a, I did an, an essay in my first year at university. I did a business studies degree and as part of it there was a kind of personal self reflection element to the first semester. And I wrote this essay that I actually don’t remember writing, Kate, but I found it in my old boxes a couple of years ago. And it was this whole discussion around what I was going to be like as I grew up and perhaps started a relationship and started a family. And I, I basically was having this debate about whether I take my husband’s name if I decided to get married, would I even decide to get married? And I look back and I was in my kind of late teens, early 20s. And I was just look, I look back and I was like, oh my gosh. I had a really kind of modern, bold view on what my future was going to be like.

Nicky Lowe [00:20:10]:
And then I fast forward and I did take my husband’s name and I actually fell into really traditional roles in the family. And it wasn’t anything my husband put upon me, you know, that was all self done. And it took me ages to untangle that. Cause I was like, how’s this happened? I kind of felt resentful to him and then realized actually it wasn’t. It’s that thing of it’s not a personal issue, it’s a society issue. And I know that we recently collaborated on a piece of work for a client and she shared that she’d got angry with her husband and had got to the point where she was gonna leave the marriage. And, and then had this realization was, oh, no, I shouldn’t be angry at my husband. I should be angry at the system, the patriarchal system.

Nicky Lowe [00:20:55]:
And that has fundamentally shifted what’s happened in our home. So I know what you’re sharing is so important because it literally can save relationships and families. So if we kind of get into this. So actually your, your book Equal Partners has some really powerful subtle dynamics that lead to that imbalance. Can you share some of the common traps that couples might fall into? Particularly, as I say, people like myself that had really good intentions that I was going to be this modern future woman. So what are some of the traps that, that trip us up?

Kate Mangino [00:21:32]:
Absolutely. I, and I think that is, you know, just to echo what you said, it is so important to realize that it is very personal. It is very. Because it is our own life. And it feels very personal. It feels like we’re the only ones going through it. But if, if this conversation is resonating with a listener out there, you are absolutely not alone. We have, both of us have worked with just myself, I’ve worked with hundreds of couples who are struggling.

Kate Mangino [00:21:59]:
And I think the important thing to remember as we keep this conversation going is that you’re both struggling. It’s not just the person who’s doing all the household stuff. That struggle is very real. But. But there’s another struggle too, of the person, the other person as well. And I think recognizing that gender inequality is bad for everyone and that we can all benefit from a change in the system hopefully will get us somewhere different. But. Okay, let me go on to your traps question.

Kate Mangino [00:22:28]:
One thing I hear all the time is, well, I make more money, so I have a bigger job. Or as Claudia golden says, I have a greedy job, so my partner does more at home. I think that, that, you know, could be legitimate if that’s what you have. If you have had a conversation about that and you have decided that if maybe one of you works at home or works part time or doesn’t work and you’ve taken on, you’ve agreed to that. But I don’t think we can just assume that the person with a bigger salary necessarily does less in the home. One thing why I don’t buy into that is because we do have data that shows that when in different sex relationships, when the man makes more money, he uses money as an excuse not to do household work. But when the woman is the breadwinner and makes more money, he’s not stepping up. She’s still doing all the things at home.

Kate Mangino [00:23:27]:
The only thing her Salary enables her to do is outsource work. So she’s just more likely to hire a nanny or a cook or cleaner or send her laundry out to alleviate her load. But he’s not stepping up. So there, once again, we’re seeing those social norms. It’s not about money, it’s about norms. And I think calling that out is really important. And you know, if, if he is the one who’s making more money, you know, and so that’s an excuse to sort of pull away from household. I think it’s also really important to have a conversation about what those repercussions are going to look like.

Kate Mangino [00:24:03]:
It might get you out of washing dishes today. So that sounds nice, but in the long run, you’re going to have a different relationship with your kids. You’re going to spend less quality time with your family. You’re not going to know them as well, they’re not going to know you as well. And those are, those are the, the things that we are seeing in reports from men that later in life they have the biggest regrets over holding stress in, feeling isolated, feeling alone. We hear a lot about the crisis of masculinity right now. We hear a lot about increased male heart disease, increased male suicide. And that’s all because they feel isolated, lonely, stuck into the work pigeonhole, you know, don’t have bonds with family.

Kate Mangino [00:24:45]:
So if you’re making those assumptions about, you know, economics in the family, talk through that a little bit. Is this really, you know, the value that we want to bring to our family? But it is a trap that a lot of people fall into as they accidentally link money and economics with how much time they’re going to spend with their kids.

Nicky Lowe [00:25:03]:
And I love the lens that you put on it because you do it in such a non judgmental way. Because if we’re not careful, this narrative can be, you know, for the majority of people, it’s women that are shouldering it all and men are getting away with it. And there’s like this judgment and resentment conversation. And what I love is you bring that different lens around. Actually this is hurting everybody and there is a cost for everybody. And when we can surface that and really shine a light on it, it changes the dynamic of the conversation.

Kate Mangino [00:25:33]:
Yes. And I think because we socialize women to share and to talk through things and to, to be honest about feelings, we hear more dialogue. Whereas we raise boys to be stoic and quiet and suck it up and bury it deep. So a lot of men might be very unhappy at work, not like the The. The amount of time they get with their family, wish they could be home more, but they’re taught and raised. Don’t talk about it. Just take one for the team. Push it down, suck it up.

Kate Mangino [00:26:02]:
And so we’re not. You know, when you take the time to talk to men and say, are you happy with, you know, sort of your life construct right now? A lot of them will say, no, I don’t like my job, but I feel like I have to keep it because my family is used to the salary and I can’t change. So I’m. I just. I do think that it’s really important to try our best. This is hard when you’re looking at your own life, because it’s, you know, it’s ourselves and it’s very personal, and we have all of that baggage and experience. But from an outside person, if you’re a coach or if you are a professional or a friend, just try to come in and be neutral and to think about how a situation is affecting everyone.

Nicky Lowe [00:26:42]:
Yeah, thank you. And you talk that inequality doesn’t happen all at once. It’s kind of these little, small kind of moments. Can you share a little bit more about that and how that shows up in reality?

Kate Mangino [00:26:56]:
I think it starts before, you know, I have a couple family members who are planning weddings right now. And I already see it. I see that, you know, one person is taking on the cognitive labor of planning the wedding and all the little things, and that person is doing all the anticipation of needs and all of the research, and then they sit down with their fiance for one hour and say. And present eight hours of research and say, here are the cakes that we can afford, and this is what matches this. And. And they make the decision together. And then they think that they have an equal partnership, when in reality, one person has spent one hour making that decision, and one person has spent weeks of research and anticipating needs making that. So I see it happening with buying houses.

Kate Mangino [00:27:45]:
I see it with planning weddings. I see it with planning for babies. I mean, how many baby showers are female only? I think that sends very subtle messages, you know, sort of, hey, mom, this is your responsibility to take care of this baby. You know, where the dad showers. Why aren’t we giving dads bottles and books and blankets and diapers? Because it needs to be their responsibility, too. There. This is. This is the system we’re talking about.

Kate Mangino [00:28:11]:
These are all the little social cues. It isn’t like it doesn’t happen overnight. It doesn’t. It doesn’t fall on you like a Ton of bricks. It’s just little by little. And it often doesn’t even come from your partnership. It comes from outside your partnership. It comes from some sort of a social message.

Kate Mangino [00:28:28]:
Workplaces, too. A lot of workplaces will, you know, be more understanding of women taking time off to spend with kids or maternity leave, because that gets normalized and they’re less. Okay. You know, in the United States, of the men who have access to parental leave, less than a third are taking it because of the norms. They feel like if they take it, it sends a bad message to their boss that they’re not really interested in work. So this is what I mean by it chips away little by little.

Nicky Lowe [00:29:01]:
Yeah. And all of those, like, gravitational pulls that just either support the system or. Yeah. Or detract from us really being able to have those conversations. In your book, you do talk a lot about. For couples that are preparing to have a baby, those conversations beforehand are really, really important. Could you share a bit more about what you’ve included in the book? Because I think it is. This should almost be the curriculum for any parent.

Nicky Lowe [00:29:31]:
Expecting parent.

Kate Mangino [00:29:33]:
Yeah, I. I always say it’s never too late. Like, wherever you are in your relationship, it’s not too late. And if there’s a magic moment to do something, it’s probably at the birth of your first child. We do see inequalities in couples without kids all the time. But there’s less to do in the house. So one person can do all the things and still have time to go to the gym, meet their friends for dinner once a week. Right.

Kate Mangino [00:30:00]:
You don’t feel. It’s not as relentless. We’re both moms. We both understand that once kids come, there’s so much to do that if one person is taking on the lion’s share of household work, they’re suffocating. And so. And there are so many unspoken norms around caregiving and parenting and nurturing. That codes all of that work for women. And frankly, it’s very dismissive.

Kate Mangino [00:30:29]:
I mean, my husband actually finds it hurtful that socially, people, we. We the collective, we don’t think that men can do these things. It’s. It’s. It’s ironically patronizing that we think that men can’t be caregivers and nurturers. So to go into having a family with eyes wide open to understand. Okay, if we don’t talk about this, if we just go on default mode and we follow the. The norms of our families and friends and we just go through the motions, we’re probably going to fall into this pattern of one of us does more and one of us does less.

Kate Mangino [00:31:10]:
How are we going to correct that? If you want to correct it, maybe you don’t. But if you, if you want to have an equal ish relationship, you’re going to have to be intentional about it. And that can start with division of physical tasks. That’s kind of the easiest place to start. And, and especially if one of you is breastfeeding, knowing that that’s nearly a full time job, isn’t it? Women on average breastfeed 40 hours a week during those first few months. So knowing that one person is going to be sitting still doing that work, the other one needs to be doing laundry and cleaning and dishes to compensate for it. Right. Another really important thing to consider is how you spend parental leave.

Kate Mangino [00:31:53]:
I know that the UK you have some really exciting paternity leave policies on the books and I hope you get that win. That would be tremendous. Dr. Sheehan Fisher is at Northwestern University here in the States and he has opened my eyes to the fact that oftentimes men take their paternity leave in collaboration with their partner because they want to sort of build a family dynamic. But it’s really important, Sheehan says, to make sure that you, you have your own alone time with that baby, that it can’t just be in collaboration with your spouse, that you need to have a couple weeks where you’re the only parent in the house with that baby. So you have to figure out how to soothe him when he’s crying, what to do if the baby gets sick, how to do the diapers, how to do the laundry, how to manage a grocery shop with an infant, because then you’ll be more prepared to be a parent as time goes on. So a bit of a boot camp and there’s some fantastic research out of the University of Southern California Dr. Darby Saxby is doing around the neuroscience of how men’s brains change the more hours they spend with their infant.

Kate Mangino [00:33:04]:
And it actually prepares them to be more nurturing and more patient and more flexible in the future. So figuring out whether you know, if you have paternity leave, take it and make sure you have alone time with your baby. If you don’t have it, find out other ways. Weekends, evenings, off hours, making sure that both parents have one on one time with that baby in the first year is super important.

Nicky Lowe [00:33:30]:
That’s fascinating about that research because it’s making me think about even as you say, if the male partner takes their parental leave, how are they using that? And as women Are we doing the maternal gatekeeping, which is like, oh, no, only I know how to kind of soothe the baby, so let me do it. And stepping back and allowing.

Kate Mangino [00:33:54]:
I breastfed my kids and when they got fussy, pop them on and that. I mean, and I remember Evan saying, I don’t have that. I have to find other ways. But give me the time and the space to find those other ways. It takes practice and trial and error.

Nicky Lowe [00:34:11]:
And I love that he could advocate for his needs, because I think most men, and my husband I know felt this was like. I feel really disempowered in that moment because I want to have a solution, and I haven’t. Biologically, I’ve not got the solution, therefore kind of. They’re less likely to step forward the next time. So it perpetuates. So I love that he could. He could kind of advocate for his knees in this moment. So you’ve talked there about the conversations which I think are really important, those proactive conversations.

Nicky Lowe [00:34:40]:
And in your book, you talk about the equal partner 40, which I think is just fascinating, your research in that area. So can you explain what is meant by the equal party 40? Who are they and what did you learn?

Kate Mangino [00:34:53]:
So I, Yeah, I. I call them the EP40. I’m a bit of a Star wars nerd, and it kind of sounded like a droid, so I think that’s why I liked the term so much. But I. When I set out to research the book, I wanted to listen to men. I wanted it to be grounded in a male perspective. I have a masculinity background. It seemed to match what I do academically, and I wanted a positive approach.

Kate Mangino [00:35:16]:
I’ve been using appreciative inquiry and appreciative approaches in work and my. In organizational work for years when I. When I work with industry. And so, you know, I think we just have a lot of information out there about what men do poorly. And I think that there’s a role for that and it’s important and that’s great. But I have a son, and I don’t want him to grow up with just a ton of information about what he can’t do. I would also like there to be a lot of information on what he can do and what is appreciated and have positive role models. So I went out searching for men who are already living as equal partners in their homes to learn from them.

Kate Mangino [00:35:57]:
And my intention was to have an EP100, but I only got to 40. It took me about a year to find these men. And then fully, you know, interview them and get to know them, to use their skills. Stories in the, in the book. I don’t think it’s be. I do think that there are not a whole lot of them. And I was doing this research in 2019, 2020. So at this, you know, this is now five years old.

Kate Mangino [00:36:20]:
But I also. There weren’t networks. There’s a lot more fathers groups nowadays. Five years ago, it was just hard to find these guys. I was just doing a snowball research approach, you know, just talking to people and talking to people. But I set this rubric, what does an equal partner look like? And then I would ask for recommendations. Do you know anyone in your life who fits this description? And if someone recommended a brother or a friend or a neighbor, I would reach out to them. And then I would say, here’s.

Kate Mangino [00:36:47]:
Here’s my list. Is this you? And sometimes they would say, yeah, that is me. I do that. And sometimes they go, ooh, nope, I’m not quite there yet. But if they said yes, then I would say, could you please introduce me to your partner? And then I would say to the partner, hey, is your spouse or boyfriend or whatever like this? And then sometimes they would say, oh, no, he is over exaggerating what he does. And sometimes they would say, yes, that is him. And if I got that second confirmation, then we would start the interview process. And even then, I had two people that started the interview process, and I quickly learned they were not equal partners and they had to drop out, which meant that those.

Kate Mangino [00:37:24]:
There were three checks of people who thought of them as equal partners, but they actually weren’t. So, you know, part of my book is just to clearly define the difference between a true equal partner and a helper, just so we can train our brains to understand what the goal even is. And then I just spent a lot of time with these 40 men and talk to them about where they came from, what their inspiration was, what their motivation is. They’re all tremendously wonderful people. They’re all from the US And Canada. They’re an incredibly diverse group. Group. I had some men who have a high school diploma, and I had one PhD.

Kate Mangino [00:38:03]:
They came from a lot of different states, rural, urban, wealthy, you know, you know, working class, like just all different kinds of men. And it was just fascinating to hear their stories and learn from them.

Nicky Lowe [00:38:17]:
And so what can we learn from the EP40? What do you think it was that enabled them to. To be those truly equal partners?

Kate Mangino [00:38:27]:
My goal for the book was to have like, some kind of magic bullet, like men with sisters grow up to be equal partners or if you’re. If your mother had blonde hair and a pink dress. Like I wanted there to be some kind of thread, right. Because that’s what publishers like. And, and there wasn’t one thread. I absolutely found trends. For example, a quarter of them came from single parent households. And so there wasn’t this division between parents and kids.

Kate Mangino [00:38:58]:
It was just a team and everyone had to work as a team. And I think that was a huge influence. I had about a. Oh, no, more about a third of. No, I’m sorry, more than half of them. Sorry. More than half of them were othered in some way growing up because they were brown or black skin color or they had a disability or they were. Had a round body shape.

Kate Mangino [00:39:22]:
And so being othered as a child and being pushed out of mainstream gave them the opportunity to learn how to have empathy for others. And so that led to them being an equal partner. So there were definitely trends, but there wasn’t one thing that connected all 40 of them. And that bothered me at first. I remember taking about two weeks off from writing and just sitting in it and feeling like I failed. I can’t find, you know, any thread. And then it dawned on me that if you flip it upside down, it actually is beautiful to say. It doesn’t matter where you come from, it doesn’t matter what your background was.

Kate Mangino [00:40:02]:
It doesn’t matter who your parents were. I had 5 or 6 of my EP40 came from violent homes. I had one who was in and out of shelters as a child because he had a violent and abusive father. It doesn’t matter where you come from. If you want to be an equal partner and you have social support. None of them did it on their own. They all had some kind of a community to help them on the way. But if you have support and you have intention, you can be an equal partner.

Kate Mangino [00:40:33]:
And I think that was the message that I was most excited about in the end.

Nicky Lowe [00:40:38]:
Yeah. And isn’t that interesting that, you know, at one point you thought that was a failure and actually it’s like this, aha, powerful moment.

Kate Mangino [00:40:47]:
It was, it was.

Nicky Lowe [00:40:49]:
So we’ve talked a lot about kind of traditional family setup, but I know that you’re really keen to make sure we go beyond those kind of traditional setups. So can you tell me a bit about what you’re learning and what your research indicates about other families?

Kate Mangino [00:41:06]:
Absolutely. From what? From what we have around, you know, data collection in the last couple years and people have only been looking at same Sex and queer couples for about five to 10 years, unfortunately. So we have very nascent data. But what we see is that same sex couples tend to have greater equality in the home than different sex couples. But they still really struggle to find balance. And I think that what that tells us is our norms over time have heavily influenced our structures. And now that the structures are in place, it doesn’t matter what your gender identity is. It’s very hard to have a balanced life no matter your gender identity.

Kate Mangino [00:41:49]:
And it, it looks a little different from country to country. The EP40 that I interviewed in Canada, for example, they have national health care the way that you do. So they could both work 2, 3/4 jobs, right. To make enough money for a family. You still have healthcare and you have more time at home when the kids are little. In the United States, our healthcare is linked to our employment. And one of you has to work full time to have a package for the family. So that is one structure that’s really preventing Americans from being equal partners.

Kate Mangino [00:42:20]:
Another structure is that the workday is longer than the school day. So you either do the before and after care, which sometimes is affordable, sometimes isn’t. Some districts have it, some school districts don’t. You’re really at the whim of sort of where you live. And so one person oftentimes ends up taking on a flexible job, a work from home job, a halftime job so they can be there for kids. That’s a structural situation, doesn’t matter what gender identity is. So I do think that we see a lot of same sex and queer couples who fall into the same traps as everyone else. And so it really is a conversation for everyone.

Nicky Lowe [00:42:58]:
Yeah, and again, that’s weirdly reassuring in some ways. It’s, you know, again, it’s saddening that it’s showing up in so many households, but reassuring that kind of we are all in this together and it’s going to take us all to, it’s going.

Kate Mangino [00:43:12]:
To take us all. And I think actually that different sex couples can learn a lot from queer and same sex couples because they, the, the same sex couples I interviewed, they’ve been forced to talk about gender norms since they came together because they are already doing something different than what is, you know, often socially expected. They’re already working through other issues and so they’re more adept and used to having these conversations and addressing this. I think there’s a lot that different sex couples can learn from, from same sex couples in this situation.

Nicky Lowe [00:43:43]:
Yeah, that makes absolute sense. So what I’d love to do now is shift to some really practical things that anybody listening. Because I’m really hoping, and I have no doubt that people listening to you. I always love how you talk about this, Kate. You have such a. I’ve fed this back to you before, but you. Your approach and how you come at this makes it really accessible, and it invites a really gentle conversation around it. It takes out a lot of the emotion because, as you say, this is showing up in our homes, and it’s deep, deeply personal, and can be deeply triggering.

Nicky Lowe [00:44:18]:
But you kind of remove that to make it an inclusive and open conversation. So what is it that we can do? What are some of the practical steps? Where can we start?

Kate Mangino [00:44:31]:
I think it starts with a conversation with your partner. Well, let me even go a step back. If you’re listening to this and you’re single, it starts with you. It starts with what you want out of a relationship. And if you can, you know, describe the kind of partner you want and you can find words to articulate that, that will help you have better conversations and, And. And. And help you find a partner who’s really someone that you’re looking for or, you know, in a lot of. There aren’t a lot of role models out there, so it could just be finding a partner who’s willing to try and willing to go into this adventure with you together.

Kate Mangino [00:45:10]:
But I think that, you know, we have different words in 2025 than we did even in 2015. And so articulating what you want out of a partnership, I think is a great step. If you’re in a partnership now, talking to each other and trying to take it away. You’ve mentioned this before, but taking it away from you and me and talking about society or the system or the context that we live in, maybe use examples of friends or colleagues. Try to depersonalize it a little bit when you start this conversation. Because I’ve been married for 19 years, I totally get it. It’s very easy to fall back into. Like, well, you said and you did, and I did.

Kate Mangino [00:45:55]:
Right. But take away I and you. And try to have. Try to see your behavioral patterns in a larger context. And I really just encourage people to listen to each other uninterrupted. Like, set your phone timer for 15 minutes and say to your partner, just tell me how you feel. Talk about expectations that you feel you need to fulfill as a father, as a mother, as a partner, as a worker. Where are your stresses? Where are your anxieties? Sometimes just saying things out loud, we don’t realize what the other person is dealing with.

Kate Mangino [00:46:34]:
I think it’s really important to talk about your past, your upbringing. There are a lot of people that don’t say it out loud, but they make an assumption that the way their childhood was is the way their family is going to be. And I can’t tell you how many couples have come to this, that I’ve worked with, have come to this magic moment where they think, oh, wait a minute, I had a stay at home mom and I’m expecting my wife to fill that same role, but she works 40 hours a week. How could she possibly do what my mom did for me? And that doesn’t make sense. Right. But you, it’s just saying it out loud and making that connection and you know, so I think talking about, you know, what my background was, what my childhood was like, what I want to continue, you know, this is a good exercise. One thing that I want to pass on to my kids, that my mother and father or aunts or uncles or family taught me and one thing I want to leave behind, Right. Like they taught me that hard work was really important.

Kate Mangino [00:47:42]:
So that work ethic is something I want to pass on to my kids. But they also taught me, you know, that father knows best and men should not be vulnerable, they should be stoic. And I don’t really agree with that. So let’s change that for the next generation. You know, we have the power to change norms and set new family values for our own family unit. It just takes a little bit of intention and conversation. So, you know, I don’t think this needs to take a ton of time. I often recommend that people set a schedule.

Kate Mangino [00:48:13]:
You know, I have people that do check ins on Sunday nights or you know, the. They’ll do a lunch date once a month, they’ll meet up for lunch when the kids are in school and. But have a designated check in time where you know you’re going to have this conversation about your household mental load balance. It’s probably not a great idea to bring it up when one kid is crying and it’s 9:30 at night and there’s dishes in the sink and you’re like, if you would only step up, this would. That’s not the time to talk about it. The time to talk about it is when you’re both anticipating it happening. You both feel relaxed, you’re both in a space where you’re willing to have the conversation. And again, you can talk about it in terms of a system and not just you and me.

Kate Mangino [00:48:56]:
Yeah.

Nicky Lowe [00:48:56]:
And as you’re saying that, that kind of stuff is good practice in the corporate world. We know that, you know, team leadership, those are the things that you do. You talk about team process, you talk about team mind, you talk about team emotion and all of those things. And just the journey I’ve gone on is recognizing, oh, I kind of feel, treat the home differently. But if we were to bring personal leadership into the home and just say these are healthy, productive conversations, that’s going to help us be a high performing team. Because again, as you were talking, I’ve heard you say before that just as we’re conditioned in a certain way, men have a condition for that. Provide and protect.

Kate Mangino [00:49:36]:
Absolutely.

Nicky Lowe [00:49:37]:
And just changing that narrative about, and here’s how you can provide, but in a different way. And here’s how you can protect our family unit, but in a different way.

Kate Mangino [00:49:47]:
And by the way, I can provide and protect too. Like, you know, is it just men that are providing and protecting? No, it’s all parents. Right. It’s all adults. And so I think, you know, let me share in that with you. Let me provide with you, let me protect with you. Let’s do this together. So really thinking about it instead in, in the terms of teamwork as opposed to falling back into gender norms, and I think that it will probably be freeing for both of you in the long run.

Kate Mangino [00:50:17]:
A lot of couples can do this on their own. That’s fantastic. If you, you know, some people like to work with a therapist or coach that’s available to you too. If you want that neutral person to get you started, that’s also an option. So I think there’s lots of ways to sort of have this conversation, but it really comes down to communication and dialogue.

Nicky Lowe [00:50:37]:
Yeah. And just thank you for the work that you’re doing and the work that you’re putting out into the world and the way in which you’re doing it. So if there was just one thing that you’re hoping that somebody takes away from this conversation, what would you want that to be?

Kate Mangino [00:50:51]:
Let me just, I mean, we’ve kind of touched on this, but just to say it once again and outright, gender inequality hurts all of us. This is not an issue that is for women to work out or for girls. This is about all of us. That gender inequality and inequality in the household is just as harmful for men and boys and non binary people as it is for women and girls. And so we need to change our messaging. We need to. And I think we, we are changing and we need to continue to, to really stress this, that there are that we all benefit when we have deep bonds with our family, when we are providing for our family, when we are caring for our family, when we’re spending time with our family. Those are human elements that are important to our whole self.

Nicky Lowe [00:51:41]:
Beautifully said. I know people are going to want to find out more about you if they don’t already know and are not already connected with you. So where would you suggest people find out? And I can drop this all in the show notes.

Kate Mangino [00:51:52]:
Thank you so much. Katemangino.com I have all of my, all of my information, contact information. I do couples work, I do corporate work. You can find my book Equal Partners Improving Gender Equality at Home, at your favorite bookseller or on there’s an audio version and there’s also, you know, the, the Kindle version. So however you like to read best, I would love for you to check it out. And after you read it, send me an email. I love to hear from readers. I love to hear perspectives.

Kate Mangino [00:52:23]:
I love to hear when people. People apply it to their own life and ask questions and we can talk through things together. So don’t be shy about reaching out.

Nicky Lowe [00:52:32]:
Brilliant. And am I right in saying that you’ve got your own podcast coming out?

Kate Mangino [00:52:35]:
I do. I’m very excited about this. Thank you for asking. This will be launched in September and it’s this kind of information. It’s exactly what we talked about today, Nikki, but we’re going. It’s an entire podcast on the intersection of parenthood and partnership and how you can be a parent. And we’re calling it Equalish. Because, you know, I always say there’s nothing less sexy than following your partner around with an Excel spreadsheet, ticking off what they’re doing and what they’re not doing.

Kate Mangino [00:53:06]:
You’ll never be intimate ever again in your relationship. But what we are striving for is that from 10,000ft over the course of your relationship, you both feel like you did your fair share, you had each other’s back. No one feels bitter. Everyone feels like they are able to be part of the family and you are Equalish. So look out for that coming in September.

Nicky Lowe [00:53:29]:
Absolutely. Well, thank you, Kay. It’s been an absolute pleasure to talk to you.

Kate Mangino [00:53:34]:
Thank you so much for having me.

Nicky Lowe [00:53:37]:
If you’ve enjoyed this episode of Wisdom for Working Mums, I’d love for you to share it on social media or with the amazing women in your life. I’d also love to connect with you. So head over to luminate group.co.uk where you’ll find ways to stay in touch. And if this episode resonated with you, one of the best ways to support the show is by subscribing and leaving a review on itunes. Your review helps other women discover this resource, so together we can lift each other up as we wrap. So thanks for listening. Until next time. Take care.